SET 12: WAR HEROES

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Re: SET 12: WAR HEROES

Postby Anima13 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:21 pm

Peralisc9001 wrote:What do you mean with other extremes?


Peralisc9001 wrote:You talk as if only those two extremes are possible.


What do YOU mean by other extremes? its not like this is coming from me :D.

And what do you mean under mediocre?
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Re: SET 12: WAR HEROES

Postby Peralisc9001 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:24 pm

I meant you talk as if the two extremes are the only two possible options to choose from.

Mediocre means decent, any decent unit, not too good not too weak. Just fine. That's mediocre level imo.
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Re: SET 12: WAR HEROES

Postby Anima13 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:35 pm

Peralisc9001 wrote:I meant you talk as if the two extremes are the only two possible options to choose from.

But why do you ask me then what I do mean by other extremes? :

Peralisc9001 wrote:Mediocre means decent, any decent unit, not too good not too weak. Just fine. That's mediocre level imo.

what is good ? what is weak? what is fine`?

I release a unit. It has a special skill you dont see any use behind. 3 sets later he enables a retarded combo that closes all units on the field. Is he now strong? or is he weak? or is he mediocre?
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Re: SET 12: WAR HEROES

Postby DeeGee » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:30 pm

There are only two extremes--either a unit is used, or it isn't.
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Re: SET 12: WAR HEROES

Postby hexagram » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:45 pm

if the new set is going to be basically equivalent of japan one it seems it will be super strong - a bit like set 11. If this is the case set11 on will outpower most of the previous sets/cards.

I guess this is fine but may cause problems. I look forward to the power struggle in folrart. Surprised there is a new set so quick? but then again no income from last set
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Re: SET 12: WAR HEROES

Postby DeeGee » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:47 pm

This business model is deliberate in Japan--release a bunch of overpowered cards without which you simply cannot win, then several months later, nerf them. The cards get nerfed, but ownership still keeps the $. Pretty smart, no?
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Re: SET 12: WAR HEROES

Postby Peralisc9001 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:52 pm

DeeGee wrote:Pretty smart, no?

No. I mean look at the results. It didn't work too well for alteil us. :?
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Re: SET 12: WAR HEROES

Postby DeeGee » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:57 pm

Peralisc9001 wrote:
DeeGee wrote:Pretty smart, no?

No. I mean look at the results. It didn't work too well for alteil us. :?


Because we're not Japanese. Different cultures. Management must have missed this boat.
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Re: SET 12: WAR HEROES

Postby Romdeau » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:59 pm

Honestly, I can say at this point there's a huge financial incentive to release sets OP on release. Logress does his best to avoid flat out power creep, but you can rest assured he is trying to make every card at least "usable" even by todays standards-without overtly power creeping similar cards-. Now when testers don't have a large amount of involvement, you get problem sets like set 9 and 11. However, that's not the case for set 12-there's been a large amount of tester involvement.

However, I'd also like to point out that hindsight is 20/20-nobody is perfect in design and you won't see a potentially game breaking problem until thousands of games have been played. So you see, it's not like people intend to pull the rug out from players right after they've paid for their cards-it's just sometimes how it works out. And no, that does not mean we should or are going to open some kinda public test server in order to collect the data. It's just not gonna happen. We don't have the manpower or time to manage and analyze such a thing. Plus, I'm not even sure the test server would be able to handle that amount of traffic.
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Re: SET 12: WAR HEROES

Postby DeeGee » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:10 pm

Romdeau wrote:Honestly, I can say at this point there's a huge financial incentive to release sets OP on release. Logress does his best to avoid flat out power creep, but you can rest assured he is trying to make every card at least "usable" even by todays standards-without overtly power creeping similar cards-. Now when testers don't have a large amount of involvement, you get problem sets like set 9 and 11. However, that's not the case for set 12-there's been a large amount of tester involvement.

However, I'd also like to point out that hindsight is 20/20-nobody is perfect in design and you won't see a potentially game breaking problem until thousands of games have been played. So you see, it's not like people intend to pull the rug out from players right after they've paid for their cards-it's just sometimes how it works out. And no, that does not mean we should or are going to open some kinda public test server in order to collect the data. It's just not gonna happen. We don't have the manpower or time to manage and analyze such a thing. Plus, I'm not even sure the test server would be able to handle that amount of traffic.


You realize all you need to do is every night release a spreadsheet of stuff every night? Not like we have a lot of traffic, and the amount of people that actually know what the heck to do with a data set is surprisingly small. I mean heck, not even the testers have any statistical know-how beyond maybe you and Gon, and only the statistics-lite that are just enough to make psych majors pretend to understand numbers.

All of this stuff can be automated. And even if you automate the actual uploading of a csv, it should not be that difficult. The data sets Alteil would be producing would be TINY compared to some industrial stuff that I work on. For instance, one data set I work on has 30,000 names, and some other fields. A few megabytes on that data set. It's really not that bad, Rom, and trust me, I know--I work with data for a living--so I'd venture to say I have more experience than the entire testing team in this combined.

As for making every card useful, do you understand the implications of what you're saying?

With 1 set, all you need to do in order to make the next set useful is to make it more useful than the previous one set.
With 2 sets, you need to make the new cards more useful than two sets worth of cards.

And as you go forward, in order to make the next set more useful, you need to make it more useful than all those previous sets before it. That's the very definition of power creep.

This is why Magic: the Gathering (particularly WotC) has the "Type 2" tournament standard, which constantly rotates out sets, so it doesn't have to powercreep like crazy.
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