Errata Friday the 12th

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Re: Errata Friday the 12th

Postby luckysvn777 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:24 pm

EM and SK have plenty of weaknesses and are just upper-tier files now, not top meta.. in my opinion. And that's without factoring in Primclone. Frankly, I don't thing the removal of Primclone would do anything there. There's plenty of other options. '

If DEFS and primclone disappear from the top charts, the way opens for so many decks...


I agree with this 100%
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Re: Errata Friday the 12th

Postby InigoMontoya » Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:07 pm

dwiguitar wrote:better to have a supreme variety of decks from all spheres (EN, SK, Gowen rush/mercs, WizKingdom)


than a supreme singular deck that pwns all.. and costs a fortune to build.


Furthermore, rush decks can be beaten much more easily than primclone and DEFS, if you know how to play well.


Interesting post! So your prediction is diversity of decks at the end of this set? My prediction is there will be 2 or 3 decks that do best, just as there have been in the past. In Set 3, it was EN and EM. This was before Primclone was widely used. I am no expert on Set 2 Meta, but it seemed to mainly be BB. Thus the time when there was the least diversity (one deck dominating) was pre-Primclone. History would argue you are wrong about a "supreme variety." The meta naturally evolves to select 2 or 3 decks that rise up - whether Primclone exists or not. Like I said, we'll see what happens. :)

Then your comment about "costs a fortune to build." Again, I have to disagree. My perspective is people have been the most disgusted by DEFS of all decks so far. Why? Because it didn't cost a fortune to build so everyone had it. Let's say the meta evolves to 3 main decks that do best in Set 6, but one of them is easily obtained and the other costs a fortune. You seem to suggest the one we should fear is the one that costs a fortune, but the community is going to react most adversely to the one that is easily obtained (since they will be running into it all the time). Just food for thought.

Finally, you wrote that rush decks can be beaten more easily if you know how to play well. I offer evidence that you are incorrect. The highest RP ever achieved was done with a rush file. The second highest RP ever achieved was accomplished with a rush file. Do you have anything that can back up your contention?
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Re: Errata Friday the 12th

Postby Arakis » Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:14 pm

shearwinds wrote:crap.. my arakis quest's submission will probably be rendered useless. why didnt the errata happen before or after the duration of arakis quest.


I was going to address this tomorrow, and I still will, but I'll do it here too since this thread is pertinent. Once the errata takes effect, if anyone who entered the current Quest used cards that receive errata, I'll allow them the option of re-entering. But only if they do so before the deadline. I'm not going to extend that. As for entries that I've already tested (I'm currently caught up): If any entry that uses errata-ed cards is in the top 10 as of the submission deadline and hasn't been re-submitted, I'll retest it against the same NPC I used for its original test. I too would prefer that the errata had not happened during a submission period, but I think we can all agree that sooner is better for this change.
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Re: Errata Friday the 12th

Postby luckysvn777 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:27 pm

Finally, you wrote that rush decks can be beaten more easily if you know how to play well. I offer evidence that you are incorrect. The highest RP ever achieved was done with a rush file. The second highest RP ever achieved was accomplished with a rush file. Do you have anything that can back up your contention?


Correct me if i'm wrong, but the second highest was achieved with set 3 lycans.. which were pretty broken at the time as well with Dagon and Aegis.. that's not a problem anymore..

And the top RP was Mavel. And he's Mavel. So yea.. ;th2


As for what decks will rise up.. well I really can't think of one in particular right now that I can predict will dominate. I seriously doubt it will be SK or EM. EN obviously not. Really, what makes things so exciting right now is that anything can happen. And well, Primclone has been, in my opinion, the top file since its creation in EX 3. So pretty much since I joined. Its really nice to (hopefully) see some new files taking the top for a change. Let's let the era be over, just like the era of lycans.


Overall though, there will likely be a few top files.. but I think the gap between the top files and rest of the files won't be as extreme as Primclone/DEFS were.. so that's only a good thing.

Granted, this is assuming the erratas work.. unlike the previous EX Prim errata..
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Re: Errata Friday the 12th

Postby garcia1000 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:44 pm

You know what

I don't care if there's 2 or 3 top decks, as long as it's fun to play against those decks.

A big part of Primclone/DEFS lameness is that it's not fun to play against them. Contrast this with, say, EX Lapierre or Gowen Rush, where even if you lose you can at least get some guys out on the field and do some stuff
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Re: Errata Friday the 12th

Postby Metallix » Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:48 pm

Meta's period aren't fun to play against the really fun duels are those when you fight someone using original decks.
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Re: Errata Friday the 12th

Postby InigoMontoya » Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:57 pm

luckysvn777 wrote:Correct me if i'm wrong, but the second highest was achieved with set 3 lycans.. which were pretty broken at the time as well with Dagon and Aegis.. that's not a problem anymore...


The deck didn't use Aegis, but did use the 50 HP Dagon. But remember, demonstrating reasons why a particular rush file was OP doesn't really help your position from a logic standpoint. The original contention was rush files are easier to beat if you know how to play well. There is evidence (which I understand you dispute) that the opposite is true. But he offers no evidence his claim is valid. Think it through for a moment. If rush decks are easier to beat "if you know how to play well" then why didn't people stop the ascension of rush file RP into the 2200's? If you grant him that position, then you are essentially saying EN was much more overpowered than Primclone (since I never got that high in RP with Primclone). If you say rush files are easier to beat than Primclone, and I achieved a higher RP with the rush file, then that can only mean that Dagon was much much more overpowered than Primrose is. Remember they only nerfed Dagon's HP 10. So maybe all we need to do is nerf Primrose's HP by 5? I'm not proposing that because I'm the one saying it is hogwash to say rush files are much more easily defeated if you know how to play well.
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Re: Errata Friday the 12th

Postby luckysvn777 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:09 pm

In all honesty, the old EN probably was more powerful than the current Primclone. They both were over the "too powerful" line in my book.

And I'm not trying to argue against whether or not rush is easier or not to beat.. that's more an opinion argument, not a fact one. Some people are better vs rush. Some aren't. However, I'm just pointing out my opinion that the reason the file did so well was not because it was a rush, but because it was indeed overpowered. Which is why it was errated.

Not to mention lycans are an exception to the rule, because they can revive themselves, and thus don't suffer the same weakness most rush files have.. which is probably why they did so well. Plus, that's why a 10 HP nerf was good on Dagon, which obviously wouldn't be good on Primrose..

Plus, times have changed greatly since then. There are certainly a lot more options out there, and I think a lot of those have brought the basic rush file down a peg or two.. after all, in most card games i've seen, the basic "beatdown" was always an early leader when the game was new, but became worse and worse as time went on... Alteil seems to be doing the same in my opinion.

Perhaps Primclone was needed back then to contain rush, but i'm pretty sure its not needed anymore, and instead is hindering a lot of other files instead.


So basically, all i'm trying to say is that rush seems balanced right now without Primclone being necessary. That's all I intend to say here.
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Re: Errata Friday the 12th

Postby InigoMontoya » Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:36 pm

luckysvn777 wrote:[Very thoughtful post!]

So basically, all i'm trying to say is that rush seems balanced right now without Primclone being necessary. That's all I intend to say here.


Yeah, my friend - I'm with you! Let's see how things evolve! 8-)

I'm super-psyched to see the meta develop. ;th2

And, I think this is the appropriate time to eat crow, Lucky. Back in like late November or early December I said let's peace-out and wait to see whether they nerfed Primrose. I predicted they wouldn't. You predicted they would.

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Re: Errata Friday the 12th

Postby luckysvn777 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:41 pm

I'm super-psyched to see the meta develop.


So am I ^^

Personally I hope the errata with Primclone makes EX Prim a unit more for mono-gowen fun.. i've used her like that before, and she's really fun like that... Plus it would be interesting to see where Mid-Gowen would develop.. there's a lot of potential there that's been overshadowed by Primclone ^^
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