August Errata

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Re: August Errata

Postby Otonashi » Fri Aug 13, 2010 5:43 pm

I think it will be highly unlikely that any downwards level manipulation will ever enter the game again without a return mechanic nerf/change. Otherwise we'll have another era of Primclone.

That's a shame too, because there would be so many other combos to be used.
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Re: August Errata

Postby Nerdyfro » Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:31 pm

I think it's important to "over-nerf" units in an errata like this. It would be horrible if after this, the meta didn't change, and then they nerfed the same units again later in the next errata. People complain because what used to be...the best cards in the game...have turned into good cards. If they were still the best cards in the game then the errata would not serve its purpose. I believe the WK decks are still all playable, but much more susceptible. I think this was enough to throw in a wrench in the 1900+ RP decks, but not destroy balance. I can see why they would not want to change return, and I hope that modifying MoF will be enough to weaken the power of return, but this is the one of the few weaknesses I see, and at first sight, the errata brings about a lot of positive changes.

I may be completely wrong once I start trying to actually play new decks, but I believe that things will change for the better, and I would like to thank all the people that put time into this errata. Cheers!
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Re: August Errata

Postby Demicross » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:07 am

I completely agree with Nerdyfro with this one.

also..
I think Raste should've been in the errata too, his action skill is way too easy to use for refess, an SP generating monster, AND he has 60HP wich is a lot when you consider him being a support unit with range 2.. Not to mention him being comboed with the beneficcient priestess (or something like that, can't remember) and Sun Tyrant Gilensa.

Retear got nerfed a bit atleast... But I think it's not quite enough. When he's a lvl 9 unit with a lot of HP he's very tough one to kill. Of course, he's in the back row most of the time, and he's guarded by tanks who keep getting revived by retears auto skill. I was playing against a retear + mirelia + marduk user this one time, and when I lost, there wasn't a SINGLE card in his/her cemetary! None! And I even managed to kill Mirelia 6-8 times, but I couldn't lay a finger on retear. He beat me with three cards in total.. if that's not unfair I don't know what is. Granted Marduk and Mirelia are both annoying units alone as well, but with retear they're monsters. Maybe Retears skill should only return a single unit, or make it an action skill, OR make the auto skill cost some SP or something..
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Re: August Errata

Postby garcia1000 » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:52 am

Raste is OP but not yet to a Bringer level. So I thought I wouldn't mention him for now.
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Re: August Errata

Postby Cytrik » Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:44 pm

Although Raste and Bringer can both OHKO any unit within range (Raste has no restrictions, however), the main difference between them is that Bringer works only for himself, while Raste works for you. The other difference that affects neither unit's abilities is that Raste is returnable. Stat wise, Bringer is able to hit first, heal from the previous turn, and kill off a unit 95% of the time. The other five percent is when the unit has massive HP for their level or massive DF. Either way, Bringer kills. Later in a turn, you have Raste. Before a single attack is thrown, Raste ups the MAX HP of all friendly preists by 20, and his action for 2 SP OHKOs, and then HEALS EVERY UNIT. No matter the type. He can heal near infinite really. Either way, when facing them, both units are tough to allow to live and can kill anything you have within range. That is not really something you want to deal with.

When facing Bringer, I found, usually, it is much easier to crush him with Grims or a rush, but with Raste, I'd either have to return him or Grimspam him. Rushes don't work since the priests just rush as well. Especially for cheaper SP costs. With Bringer, after a set, you usually need to wait since you only gain 1 SP a turn after using his skill. So, sometimes, when you need him for desperation, he comes out alone. Raste, on the other hand, is usually played behind some tanks. 1-on-1, Bringer will always win because he moves first. However, in a real battle setting, Raste will beat Bringer because Raste only needs ONE (1) unit in front of him to sac to the Dragon Slayer before he kills the Slayer himself. Raste OP? I don't think so. He's too slow. A ranged attacked can kill him if necessary. And he only affcts HP, not MAX HP. Maybe he could use some tweaking, maybe, but I think he's currently balanced. Bringer OP? Also no. He moves first, leaving him open to attacks fo the rest of the turn. Plus, most Grims can attack him while he's weak at the start of a turn. His healing and high AGI can only do him so much. Raste is the one who can take a hit, then move and heal EVERYONE. I'll say it again. Bringer works for himself. Raste works for everyone.
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Re: August Errata

Postby Demicross » Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:39 pm

Actually Raste's skill DOES affect MAX HP, and not only HP.. https://login.alteil.com/cardDB/detail.php?id=589
And sure, you can grim him with gowen spells like fire arrow, or maybe return or pure terror, but killing him ONCE isn't good enough, sometimes twise isn't either. He can just be revived. Sure he's "slow" but so are most of refess units, they're supposed to be. Raste could take care of a lvl 7 dragon zombie with 95HP and agi one in an instant.. There aren't that many ranged attackers (except for some ranged gowen units) that can deal enough damage to take care of raste fast enough by themselves. Return works, but then again, return works for every unit of lvl 3 and below and can solve many problems that way, BUT Raste isn't all that hard to bring back to the field for refess. I actually managed to return him with a SS once with perfect timing, but he was brought right back again, because refess being the best at SP gen can do that. Even when I returned him, the other units on the field already had enough MAX HP to take care of themselves just fine. All that trouble for getting rid of a SINGLE lvl 3 unit is a huge waste of SP and grims for all spheres, especially for lawtia, since you have to be extra careful about how and when you spend your SP and grims.

Granted priests can and should be able to take care of the undead units easily, it's only natural, but in my humble opinion, raste can kill off ALL kinds of units way too easily and gains a lot for a very small price of 2 SP.
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Re: August Errata

Postby Cytrik » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:22 pm

I went from memory. Well, seeing that he ruins MAX HP, he's ahead of Bringer since he can finish an Undead with Refresh better than Bringer can. Honestly, Gowen's best MAX HP killer is Cassandra. She deals -50 MAX HP (unbuffed) to a column for 2 SP. Not even Diosaur can boast that, and he is AGI 4 and his skill goes off for 1 SP. Still, I find Raste balanced. You have to kill him quick. He is a keystone unit. Get rid of him, and preists slowly fall apart themselves. Bringer, and I'll say this again, is NOT a keystone unit. He is more of a semi-conditional unit.

I'm unsure what to do with Raste currently if he would be elected for errata. Most people do not use him, and that confuses me since he is so good. Unless he owns the meta, I see no reason to change him.
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Re: August Errata

Postby George911 » Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:11 am

I'd like to find an answer to the issue presented in Otonashi's post. If that issue is so persistent, i would like to know why isn't it taken care of?
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Re: August Errata

Postby Gota » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:47 pm

Logress wrote:Overall, despite all the time this took, there was never enough time. Myself and my testers assembled lists of cards to be addressed, discussed them endlessly, and eventually had to put them in order by priority. That means it’s possible there are some cards that didn’t get tweaked because they were so low on the list we never got there. No one’s perfect, and no one wanted to wait another day.


Important question: Are those cards that you guys never got around to tweaking going to be in the next errata/before the next errata? I just want to know that if the next errata is going to incorporate these cards or is the next errata just going to be like the old erratas where they addresses immediate problems only (Overused cards and high RP)? I hope that those cards are not forgotten, and that next errata, underused cards will be addressed more, because it always seems liek erratas were only done to nerf cards and not enough buffing of junk cards. We do have old erratas that addressed on underused cards, but it seems like some were looked at because CSquared was around to push for it, i.e. RMA, Monk of the Single Strike if i recall were 2 of CSquared's favorites. But hes been off the radar for a while now.

Anyways, just wanted to see some underdog cards get pushed into the arena, while the overused cards are taking blows.
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Re: August Errata

Postby Logress » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:52 pm

The underused cards will always be looked at whenever we do an errata, although they probably won't be the driving force behind an errata on their own. Also, many of the underused cards are either the extra cards that come with the starters, or aren't actually underused... just underused in top meta. Some cards, to some extent, are there for the rule of 'bad' cards in magic, that they play an important part of the game in terms of learning what is efficient and why (Assassin even explains why the cost of her own skill isn't that efficient in her card text). For those cards we usually at least try to make them unique, so they might be a good fit for a future deck that revolves around other cards.
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