Beating files that have return [In-depth] (WIP)

[justtmpuser]

Whole fruit debate is completely pointless, since it does nothing to worst return cards like Dio or Mystere and makes you vulnerable to RFA ss. If something works 50% of time it is not strategical counter, it's a coin toss.

[Anima13]

Whole fruit debate is completely pointless, since it does nothing to worst return cards like Dio or Mystere and makes you vulnerable to RFA ss. If something works 50% of time it is not strategical counter, it's a coin toss.

I completly agree.
the complete debate about fruit is pointless. gowen posess far better counters to return then fruit and also other spheres do.
Yet ppl want to whine about return so they keep running the crappiest effort against it (that is like you pointed out is arguable not a strategic counter at all), so they can say: look I lost again vs return again, return is op, nerf return.
One could accept that one designed its deck weak against returns, or one could mod itsdeck against it but hey , why bother to think?

It could be general healthy for the discussion, if we would eliminate fruit from the possible return counters.

[Callonia]

There is in fact other form of counter to returns.. My preferred strategy is to just simply run lvl 4s and 2s in a deck. It has infuriated a few return users. Cuz each time they return aliria they lose 1 sp. I seen aliria get cycloned twice. I'm like rolleyes. But problem is usually return users tend to have their file be selfreliant like gowen style which even when they can't return you they can oneshot you with no problems.

[InfernityFan]

There is in fact other form of counter to returns.. My preferred strategy is to just simply run lvl 4s and 2s in a deck. It has infuriated a few return users. Cuz each time they return aliria they lose 1 sp. I seen aliria get cycloned twice. I'm like rolleyes. But problem is usually return users tend to have their file be selfreliant like gowen style which even when they can't return you they can oneshot you with no problems.

Which unit other than Ryu and the duo end-game unit can one shot Refess units in Falkow?

EDIT: eh, there is Mirelia

[Callonia]

There is in fact other form of counter to returns.. My preferred strategy is to just simply run lvl 4s and 2s in a deck. It has infuriated a few return users. Cuz each time they return aliria they lose 1 sp. I seen aliria get cycloned twice. I'm like rolleyes. But problem is usually return users tend to have their file be selfreliant like gowen style which even when they can't return you they can oneshot you with no problems.

Which unit other than Ryu and the duo end-game unit can one shot Refess units in Falkow?

EDIT: eh, there is Mirelia

Many enough to fit in a single file.
I hate them all with a passion.

Deep Squid well at least his action skill costs 3 sp to use,
Vordore combo that gives every falkow unit on field like 80+ or more attack,
an 30/30 Renally which means her action skill does 100 while ignoring defense,
Swan Swordswoman Alna,
Oseon,
Spell Lancer,
Rapier Fencer of Regus,
Vonderam,
Sorceror Monk of Regus,
Mirelia,
Magic Greatsword Soldier,
Bog Wyvern,
Sea Serpent,
Do I need to state an obvious unit? Urgrant,
Strike Wyverns is only a threat to average lvl 4s with only 60 hp but that's a pinpoinable 60 damage. x.x poor ridrea got bullied by one once,
Mermaid Spear Fighter, i hate her, i hate people that know how to use her good,
Mage Soldier Mercenary Girl she can oneshot slightly wounded tanks,
Giant Sea Hunter but i haven't seen anyone use him other than me so far even used it once to bully an refess file with charge spam,
Must not forget dilate and his 100 damage slashes,
Mermaid Princess Emana with sword version seen her oneshot tanks with really high atk,
Combo fire dragon summon ruuca with balls of flame for an field wipe doing total of 80 damage or an tempest for 90 damage,
slave of chaos shecas,
Ryu the annoying dude that's clearly overcompensating with his swords,
Even Ibert can oneshot unbuffed tanks with his base attack of 80,
ex ocean king vondora he actually killed my zagar,
ex wizard archer of regus that 90 damage pinpoint for 2 sp hurts.

Well that's all for now, I have seen every and each single one used against me while spamming returns nonstop. This is literally what falkow is, anything else is chopped livers. People always use oneshotters.

[Anima13]

There is in fact other form of counter to returns.. My preferred strategy is to just simply run lvl 4s and 2s in a deck. It has infuriated a few return users. Cuz each time they return aliria they lose 1 sp. I seen aliria get cycloned twice. I'm like rolleyes. But problem is usually return users tend to have their file be selfreliant like gowen style which even when they can't return you they can oneshot you with no problems.

Which unit other than Ryu and the duo end-game unit can one shot Refess units in Falkow?

EDIT: eh, there is Mirelia

Many enough to fit in a single file.
I hate them all with a passion.

Deep Squid well at least his action skill costs 3 sp to use, (40 attack oneshot your refess units? very sp inefficient squid skill makes falkow player loose usually)
Vordore combo that gives every falkow unit on field like 80+ or more attack, (endgame unit, you let enough room for you opponent to swarm his field full of units so vordore could work.. why did you let that happen?)
an 30/30 Renally which means her action skill does 100 while ignoring defense,(attacking sacrifical units is not necessary the best solution for refess, especially if your field doesn't stand)
Swan Swordswoman Alna, (your opponent could build up enough grimcount to run her oneshotting your tanks, why did you let that happen?)
Oseon, (if your opponent can oneshot with osen he has huge sl= either invested LP or sp in it)
Spell Lancer, (2sp skill? sp intensive, you let your opponent enough room to built up sp so he/she can use such skills)
Rapier Fencer of Regus, (you either let your opponent build up its field or your opponent is running a risky approach by slyphing)
Vonderam, (its a big lvl7 you should have the resources on field and sp vise to fight a big by the time it arrives)
Sorceror Monk of Regus, (endgame unit sp/sl intensive, if you won the sp game before he will burn out fast and wont harm you)
Mirelia, (your opponent could build up enough grimcount to run her oneshotting your field, why did you let that happen?)
Magic Greatsword Soldier,(if your opponent can oneshot with osen he has huge sl= either invested LP or sp in it)
Bog Wyvern, (endgame unit LOCKING OUT ONES OWN FILE.... return is irrelevant in this case )
Sea Serpent, (requires field to protect, or soulskill support. why did you killed opponents unit that turn if you dont want to take the hit yet?????)
Do I need to state an obvious unit? Urgrant, (require 6 sl in lawtia, 4 sl in falkow and floating sp. your oppoent could set him up and is safe from your soulskills?? why?)
Strike Wyverns is only a threat to average lvl 4s with only 60 hp but that's a pinpoinable 60 damage. x.x poor ridrea got bullied by one once, (please dont try to explain me that a lvl5 crappy hp unit with 1sp action skill is a threat especially if you run refess: just take a look on gowen.... )
Mermaid Spear Fighter, i hate her, i hate people that know how to use her good, (again requires field and agi manipulation)
Mage Soldier Mercenary Girl she can oneshot slightly wounded tanks, (khm.. maggie is gowen gowen do oneshot things usually, so its fine)
Giant Sea Hunter but i haven't seen anyone use him other than me so far even used it once to bully an refess file with charge spam, (I wont comment this)
Must not forget dilate and his 100 damage slashes, (dilate is gowen + retarted gowen allways has one shotters)
Mermaid Princess Emana with sword version seen her oneshot tanks with really high atk, (requires filed, action skill is obvious and there arent many refess units with that high attack, emanas damg is a weak threat for refess)
Combo fire dragon summon ruuca with balls of flame for an field wipe doing total of 80 damage or an tempest for 90 damage, (ruuca is sp intensive + anounce its dmg one turn before. you have one turn to react to the dmg you will recieve)
slave of chaos shecas,( requires units in the cemetery: you started to kill his units, accept the consequences)
Ryu the annoying dude that's clearly overcompensating with his swords, (requires filed support and time to set up)
Even Ibert can oneshot unbuffed tanks with his base attack of 80, (why noone uses him?? hmm becasue considering his 20 hp he is maybe not a serious threat?? also lvl5...)
ex ocean king vondora he actually killed my zagar, (endgame unit.. usual like above)
ex wizard archer of regus that 90 damage pinpoint for 2 sp hurts. (sp inefficient unless you run lvl2 rush. lvl2 falkow rush is a threat for your refess file???

Well that's all for now, I have seen every and each single one used against me while spamming returns nonstop. This is literally what falkow is, anything else is chopped livers. People always use oneshotters.

I make this post to give some insight here about the units you complain. I completly understand that refess has issues with return, after all falkow has also issues with gowens dmg too.
I added some comments to each of your so called "oneshotters". The cards and the issues you mention goes in 3 different categories:

1 falkow mid,big units: i think you are joking here: you wanna tell me that the the sphere with the weakest attackpower capped at around 40-60 dmg oneshotting your units????
I mean hallo, do you play bigs??? it takes much longer to set up mid big units. And by the time they are out they face 3-4 units on the other side and should be capable to deal with at least one unit per turn if not more. and take a look around: all other spehres will have mid/big units that can do that, only falkow dont.

2 the second category belongs to units that are resourceintensive and use something like grimcount, sp, sl to boost their attack. The very fact that they can do that shows that you lost the sp/rasource race early game. If you wish to win against such cards, you need to rethink your strategy. If you keep helping them activating their souls, or dont try to win the sp game (via spgen, stalling) and create a big sp environment as refess, you will loose. you dont loose due to the attacker units, you loose cause you let your opponent create more resources then you could have.

3 the third category belongs to units which require field to boost their attack. They are not standalone, need support, and are crippled wo them. if you want to win against such units you need to invest in the fight on the field. this can be done by debuffs, units protection or damage (not by your units on field but anything else eg souls dmg grims). There are also other ways like removals but I think those are not good in refess.


Kepp in mind you cannot counter all files. Each file has its own amount of strengh in sp gain, field relialence, and dmg potential. Depending how you build your file AND how you play, you will be stronger to one type and weaker to another. If you start to transfer into gowen type play, you will give your opponents access to their souls. If you keep running dangerous sacrificals your opponent is forced to activate your souls.

By the way just to make it clear: the "oneshotters" you will find tons in lawtia and gowen. And for falkow nearly everything is a "oneshotter".