How does Gowen Survive?

Strategies and Card File Construction

Re: How does Gowen Survive?

Postby shadowmoor » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:27 am

I have encountered this exact problem so I completely understand where you are comming from. It blows losing to something as cheep as a Le Beaou SC's. I am only a lvl. 2 (nearly lvl. 3) character and I did not have dual gal available in my arsenal, but I did use the fire arow and Tornado on the buffed zombie lord and it did seam to work rather effectively. The only problem was his regeneration for only 2-SP. Since you are at a stalemate for sometime and you have to summon such high lvl cards to defeat him and the other player doesn't have to summon anything, except for the occasional Grimmore to slow you down, they build up SP quickly and so you can't do much to destroy him.

But yeah, I am deffinately looking forward to using this strategy against further Le Beaou buffed cards. I can see how it would work and think that it will be very useful the next time I encounter this problem. Thanks alot for you help!
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Re: How does Gowen Survive?

Postby Eeyore » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:33 am

BC you as well haven't grasped the concept I was talking about.

I'll spell it out simply.

I'll be kicking Lawtia's butt because I DO use Gowen's swarm tactics. And against most opponents who do not run Killing Machine, they will lose. Those that do use Killing Machine can use a very simple way to beat Gowen. It is extremely lame and extremely cheesy.

Say I, Gowen have 4 level 2 cards alive and kicking on my side. My opponent, Lawtia has 2 left and knows that they're going to die very soon. What does he/she do? They save up all of their SP not expending any to revive or summon new cards. Once they're up to about 6-8 SP they time it right when their other cards are going to die and play ANIMATE DEAD or ZOMBIE LORD one turn earlier. This way when there other cards die and their Labeau's/Killing Machine's activate they immediately go onto the chosen regenerating card.

You cannot kill a regenerating card with a GOWEN deck when said opponent has SP stored to regenerate the cheesy card.

Once the Killing Machine's activate onto the regenerating card, there is no use playing anymore if you cannot deal the death in the amount of SP your opponent has remaining divided by 2.

Ex: If your opponent has 5 SP remaining after Animate Dead has been buffed twice by Killing Machine than you have to be able to make that card regenerate ONCE for every 2 SP they have remaining and then one more for when they lack enough SP to auto-revive. In this case 3 kills are required.

Against Lawtia players that do not use Killing Machine on a regenerating card you are correct BC, I still have a chance using swarm tactics. Otherwise for those that do it is very simple....
Play a level 1 card in the front row each round and let it die off. Save all remaining SP and when your Killing Machine's are going to activate (And you're losing something like 10 to 5 in LP) play your regenerating card a round earlier. Botta-bing-botta-boom GOWEN's dead.

It doesn't matter for Lawtia players how badly they are getting man-handled in the match. As long as they have 2 Killing Machines and 1HP Fully Regenerating card left (And plenty of SP in storage) Gowen has absolutely ZERO chance of winning even if the LP are Lawtia 1 - Gowen 10.

Swarm tactics do not work against fully regenerating cards when your opponent has SP remaining, with or without Killing Machines defense boost.
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Re: How does Gowen Survive?

Postby Eeyore » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:59 am

Your welcome Shadow & good luck.
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Re: How does Gowen Survive?

Postby reydien » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:17 pm

You disregarded BcDeD's comments completely. He (???) suggests iczer slashing the LeBeau cards, and your response is "if the LeBeau goes off with an enemy unit on the field, Gowen practically loses." Yes, the Lawtia user can work on the timing, but such plays are generally easy to spot, and the Gowen user can work the timing, too. Is it easy? That depends on the skill level of both iczers, the card files, and who lady luck has favored more. Is it possible? definitely, I've done it several times myself.
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Re: How does Gowen Survive?

Postby Eeyore » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:00 pm

Reydien you're not understanding either. I disregard what's said because it's not a legitimate way to beat good players. Which is mostly what you will see after level 9 right now.

I'm not interested so much in strategies that will work 30% of the time against poor players.

I am interested in strategies that are proven and will work against all players all of the time. Gowen has no answer. Swarm tactics only work sometimes.

If the enemy Lawtia player places one regenerating card out at any time before Killing Machine's are activated as his/her SC's say goodnight!

Yes some Lawtia players will tell you that their worst matchup is versus Gowen. These same players only lose very infrequently and when they do it is due to Gowen swarm tactics luckily avoiding the guillotine that Killing Machine is. They lose once or twice out of 10 matches and when they do it is against Gowen.

Again I'm not discussing strategies that will work 25% of the time. I'd like to hear ideas that will work all of the time so you don't have to be:

A) Lucky as hell
B) Always more skilled than your opponent (which if your honest isn't a certainty)
C) Use other Sphere's cards
D) Rely on your opponents mistakes to have a chance to win

That's why I didn't fully acknowledge BC's idea. It wasn't a strategy that is anywhere near a sure thing. I do appreciate all ideas, but I did put quite a bit of energy into creating my initial post so when someone replies in a short and un-thought out post "Use Swarm Tactics."

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Re: How does Gowen Survive?

Postby reydien » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:29 pm

Okay, I'm gonna say something you will probably both dislike and disagree with. Alteil (And most other card games) is basically a glorified Rock-Paper-Scissors game. Not every deck will be able to beat every other deck. Gowen has trouble beating Lawtia; from my understanding, Falkow generally doesn't. Based on your own words, you want a solution for beating Lawtia decks that doesn't rely upon luck, skill, or other factions. In other words, you want an "I win" button vs Lawtia. Can't you see how "not simple" such a change would be?

You feel that LeBeau's Soul ability is unbalanced; At this point I would probably agree. What I can assure you is the US team (and probably the Japanese team) are looking at the current meta-game very closely, and working hard to figure out whether it is in fact unbalanced, and if so how to fix it.
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Re: How does Gowen Survive?

Postby Grain » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:42 pm

reydien wrote:Alteil (And most other card games) is basically a glorified Rock-Paper-Scissors game.


1 - Rock

2- Paper

3 - Scissors

4 - I guess Refess gets the short end?
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Re: How does Gowen Survive?

Postby Eeyore » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:34 pm

Reydien I agree with your first paragraph for sure, usually there is a triangle of sorts in games.

A has advantage over B
B has advantage over C
C has advantage over A

I'm not asking for a expansion card to be made that is similar to Killing Machine for Gowen or any sort of thing that would automatically make Gowen beat Lawtia. What I'm saying is that there should be some automatic card, combo, something that is natural to Gowen that allows them to still have a CHANCE to win. Falkow has Return, Expert Sorcerer? (he returns cards under level 4 & 4 agility) and the Witch (Can send a card under level 2 to file). That's 3 ways.

I think it's unbelievably lame that Gowen has to quit matches as it has no chance of winning. It's one thing to be a longshot. It's another that they have 0% chance of pulling off a big comeback.

Like you said though Lawtia has simply too many answers for Gowen. Lawtia usesFlesh Recycler every time I bring out Berserker to take out their buffed regenerating card.

And they bring out Assassin to take out any card under level 4 that is giving them a hard time like Brave Solider + Panther Soul. That Assassin again is one of the cheasiest cards made. A ranged auto-kill card with 4 Agility which is as high or higher than Gowen's cards. You not only have to kill it once, but have to kill it over and over again which is pretty impossible to do considering he is used in the end game and as a Gowen player you're main concerned is to stop the other Lawtia cards that are buffed by Killing Machine. With Animate Dead up front buffed by Labeau and Assassin in the back row picking you off one by one it makes for a pretty sour experience. I think Assassin would've been better off as a Gebrauilt card and/or only allowed to use his auto-kill ability once. That the card can repeatedly use that skill over and over to clean out your entire deck is really aggravatingly un-fun. My concern with Lawtia is that they take the fun out of the game. It is not a healthy competitive experience. I truly believe every Sphere/clan/deck whatever should have a viable option to counter-attack an opponents strategy with. This balance will make the game more diverse and fun for all users. As it is now the game is more along the lines of the have's & the have nots (at least it is with Gowen. Try playing Gowen vs Gowen when your opponent is as skilled as you and runs Killing Machines instead of any other SC that isn't a booster) How that Assassin isn't a 5-6 star is beyond me. It's more effective than most level 6's in my opinion. That is another debate alltogether so don't grill me on that one, it's not my focus here.

Anyways even though Assassin and Flesh Recycler annoy me because they're so effective against Gowen I don't have an issue with them because they still leave me a chance of competing after they're used. Killing Machine on the other hand leaves none if it is used appropriately as I have previously mentioned.

And the reason I'm pressing this is that the only way to improve your deck is to get new cards. And how do you get new cards? By leveling up or Mirage Master if you do not buy booster packs. So when I only get 1 xp in a loss instead of 20 for a win it gets frustrating. The game needs rebalancing so that the people at a disadvantage do not get overwhelmed with the current experience pay out and stop playing the game alltogether. Even if the loser gets 5 or 10 instead of the 1 xp it wouldn't be such a bummer. These games are not fast. I'm not sure what the average time is. 15-20 minutes I'd guess. That's an awful long time to spend for 1 xp when you run up against a known player running double Killing Machines in a Lawtia deck with your Gowen. It's getting to the point that it's more benficial to throw in the towel and Give Up the match so you can play someone else, hopeful on equal footing.

I dont' see how any of this is good for the game.

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Re: How does Gowen Survive?

Postby gamma » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:37 pm

I think we have exact opposite stances on this. I play Lawtia and find that it is really easy to mis-time the animated dead drop so that instead of Killing Machine giving it great defense, animated dead sucks sp, gowen breaks through and the game is over.

Furthurmore, many Gowen decks splash dispel. I understand that the Gowen starter deck is fairly screwed, and you in particular may not have found many answers, but in general, Gowen players will have found a flesh recycle, return, or dispel at some point. Spending 4-6 sp here is a good investment. You might note that the Refess players have even fewer solutions (no dispel in their starter deck). If you're really desperate you can try to backlash animated dead.

It is too bad that many players will pass up these cards not knowing their worth. I'm sure if I leveled up again, I'd pick different cards (hahaha Castle Wight).

How can you be outraged that Lawtia has a single unit with 4 agi and 20 hp that can spend 3sp so that one of your units dies, that is if it can win the initiative battle with the other 4 agi units? I think Killing Machine needs to be toned down, but I also think Gowen needs to be toned down as well. Panther Soldier combo, Kurina, and combat monk are simply too good against the low agi Lawtia units. Also Lawtia has no free revive units anywhere in its first 3 stars of rarity which means that anytime Lawtia trades with Kurina, Gowen gains an advantage.

The fact that you can beat any Lawtia who doesn't use Killing Machine is not just showing that Killing Machine is too good but also that the matchup is unbalanced.
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Re: How does Gowen Survive?

Postby reydien » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:13 am

The timing is not as difficult as you may think, especially against Gowen: By nature Gowen users can not stop attacking; if we don't kill your units, you kill our units. From there, it shouldn't be difficult to gauge the incoming damage and see when the units you want to die will die.

As for cross-faction solutions, it's kinda hard to spend the 4-6 SP when the Lawtia user has a [card=35]Mad Priest[/card] draining my SP every turn. 1 SP to the Priest, 1 SP to try and keep something on the field so they don't roll over me, that's my 2 SP for the turn. Every turn. Until I lose.

I don't think Eeyore's upset about [card=33]Assassin[/card] in general, just tossing it out as part of the arsenal of different units Lawtia has to make the LeBeau strategy even more powerful. If my solution to your buffed tank is a unit with 20 hp or less (berserker), you flesh recycle it. If it has more than 20 hp, you Assassinate it. Mad priest ensures I can't gather any reasonable amount of SP quickly. You have plenty of ranged units to attack over your tank's head.

Edit: oh, and I've already experienced a Lawtia deck with a starter (as in early turns, not starter cards) combo that, unless I know it's coming before I play my first unit, will all but guarantee my loss; Even if I know it's coming, as Gowen I don't really have any counter. Quite frankly, I wanna build that deck now, it's so ridiculous.
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