If You Hate Lebeau

Strategies and Card File Construction

Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby Awod » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:01 am

Grain wrote:
Awod wrote:AD is easily killable, big difference.


I apologize... :cry:



I forgive you. ;attack

and I agree it's a pain on reanimating guys, on the bright side if your field isn't completely void of any units and you're capable of knocking him down you can keep his SP low constantly and slowly build up for an attack when he finally falls.
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Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby Eeyore » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:06 am

Try that against Zombie Lord and let me know how it goes.

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Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby Moratorius » Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:22 am

As a Gowen player who has yet to obtain return/dispel cards, I've found there aren't many options to counter a LeBeau'd card (usually AD, or even worse... Zombie Lord). Apart from the 2SP per turn that can sustain the regeneration, the opponent gets the SP from not reviving the closed cards that triggered the LeBeau SC in the first place. This is, of course, if you manage to kill it... e.g. via Berserker's Berserk, Fire Arrow, Fire Tornado, or a Magic Weapon buffed Charge skill by Axeman/Revolver Knight (or the Charge buff, but that doesn't bode well if your opponent has more than two creatures already). Most of these can only be done once before you're out of SP or cards. Meanwhile, your opponent can skip to stock up SP in case you miraculously kill it more than twice in one turn, and gets free 30 damage attacks whilst he turtles. Unfortunately, the Gowen starter file only has one card capable of standing this abuse for more than 1-2 turns, the Magic Sword Dual-Wielder... which in turn has to suck up 1 SP per turn to drop the attack of the LeBeau'd card (if it's the only card in the front row... it's a crapshoot with additional units, such as the everpresent Magic Doll.) Dryad's defense buff can keep her alive longer, though not for much against a Zombie Lord... plus, one of the standard tricks of the Lawtia book is the drop a Magic Doll next to the LeBeau'd unit to break through the pitiful defense Gowen can muster. Eventually the opponent can just steadily beat down all your units, or sacrifice a low-cost high AT card (such as another AD) in the back row with Counterattack to clear the remnants.

In the highly unlikely possibility that the opponent runs out of SP and the LeBeau'd card has finally been closed permanently, you've probably exhausted your file and have nothing left. SC's could save the day, if you haven't depleted it already... at any rate, although I've managed to do this several times, I've always lost in the end.

... that's my summary of the situation.
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Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby Gigantorus » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:37 am

I am a Lawtia player and I support the the removal of animating dead/zombie lord and LeBeau combination. LeBeau should only affect living creatures since you don't need to counter it more than once per card in that scenario.
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Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby Grain » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:25 pm

Moratorius wrote:As a Gowen player who has yet to obtain return/dispel cards, I've found there aren't many options to counter a LeBeau'd card (usually AD, or even worse... Zombie Lord). Apart from the 2SP per turn that can sustain the regeneration, the opponent gets the SP from not reviving the closed cards that triggered the LeBeau SC in the first place. This is, of course, if you manage to kill it... e.g. via Berserker's Berserk, Fire Arrow, Fire Tornado, or a Magic Weapon buffed Charge skill by Axeman/Revolver Knight (or the Charge buff, but that doesn't bode well if your opponent has more than two creatures already). Most of these can only be done once before you're out of SP or cards. Meanwhile, your opponent can skip to stock up SP in case you miraculously kill it more than twice in one turn, and gets free 30 damage attacks whilst he turtles. Unfortunately, the Gowen starter file only has one card capable of standing this abuse for more than 1-2 turns, the Magic Sword Dual-Wielder... which in turn has to suck up 1 SP per turn to drop the attack of the LeBeau'd card (if it's the only card in the front row... it's a crapshoot with additional units, such as the everpresent Magic Doll.) Dryad's defense buff can keep her alive longer, though not for much against a Zombie Lord... plus, one of the standard tricks of the Lawtia book is the drop a Magic Doll next to the LeBeau'd unit to break through the pitiful defense Gowen can muster. Eventually the opponent can just steadily beat down all your units, or sacrifice a low-cost high AT card (such as another AD) in the back row with Counterattack to clear the remnants.

In the highly unlikely possibility that the opponent runs out of SP and the LeBeau'd card has finally been closed permanently, you've probably exhausted your file and have nothing left. SC's could save the day, if you haven't depleted it already... at any rate, although I've managed to do this several times, I've always lost in the end.

... that's my summary of the situation.


It's fine to be frustrated, just don't go around insulting people.
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Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby Moratorius » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:07 pm

Grain wrote:
Moratorius wrote:As a Gowen player who has yet to obtain return/dispel cards, I've found there aren't many options to counter a LeBeau'd card (usually AD, or even worse... Zombie Lord). Apart from the 2SP per turn that can sustain the regeneration, the opponent gets the SP from not reviving the closed cards that triggered the LeBeau SC in the first place. This is, of course, if you manage to kill it... e.g. via Berserker's Berserk, Fire Arrow, Fire Tornado, or a Magic Weapon buffed Charge skill by Axeman/Revolver Knight (or the Charge buff, but that doesn't bode well if your opponent has more than two creatures already). Most of these can only be done once before you're out of SP or cards. Meanwhile, your opponent can skip to stock up SP in case you miraculously kill it more than twice in one turn, and gets free 30 damage attacks whilst he turtles. Unfortunately, the Gowen starter file only has one card capable of standing this abuse for more than 1-2 turns, the Magic Sword Dual-Wielder... which in turn has to suck up 1 SP per turn to drop the attack of the LeBeau'd card (if it's the only card in the front row... it's a crapshoot with additional units, such as the everpresent Magic Doll.) Dryad's defense buff can keep her alive longer, though not for much against a Zombie Lord... plus, one of the standard tricks of the Lawtia book is the drop a Magic Doll next to the LeBeau'd unit to break through the pitiful defense Gowen can muster. Eventually the opponent can just steadily beat down all your units, or sacrifice a low-cost high AT card (such as another AD) in the back row with Counterattack to clear the remnants.

In the highly unlikely possibility that the opponent runs out of SP and the LeBeau'd card has finally been closed permanently, you've probably exhausted your file and have nothing left. SC's could save the day, if you haven't depleted it already... at any rate, although I've managed to do this several times, I've always lost in the end.

... that's my summary of the situation.


It's fine to be frustrated, just don't go around insulting people.

Where did I insult anyone?
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Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby Hakuro de Killer » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:55 pm

Here's the thing. You remove LeBeau from Lawtia at this point in the game, it's the same as cutting off a Lawtia user's legs. I don'[t know how many games I would have lost had I not had LeBeau in my Soul Cards. It's the same as removing Zagar, Fire Tornado, and Vordore from Refess, Gowen, and Falkow, respectively. I have lost a LOT of games to those cards and I find them broken. A card with the LeBeau effect on them is easily killed by something that deals direct damage or has the ability Penetrate. I don't care who you are. If you say LeBeau is broken and you don't play Lawtia, look at Zagar, Fire Tornado, and Vordore again and tell me those cards aren't broken without lying, I dare you.
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Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby Moratorius » Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:21 pm

Hakuro de Killer wrote:Here's the thing. You remove LeBeau from Lawtia at this point in the game, it's the same as cutting off a Lawtia user's legs. I don'[t know how many games I would have lost had I not had LeBeau in my Soul Cards. It's the same as removing Zagar, Fire Tornado, and Vordore from Refess, Gowen, and Falkow, respectively. I have lost a LOT of games to those cards and I find them broken. A card with the LeBeau effect on them is easily killed by something that deals direct damage or has the ability Penetrate. I don't care who you are. If you say LeBeau is broken and you don't play Lawtia, look at Zagar, Fire Tornado, and Vordore again and tell me those cards aren't broken without lying, I dare you.

I don't know about Zagar or Vordore, but I don't see how Fire Tornado is broken at all. It costs 5 SP, which is 5x that of summoning AD and 2.5x that of keeping it alive after a death (and it can only kill your LeBeau'd unit once that turn). This is, of course, assuming FT will hit it at all; I've had some games where all it has done is hit another unit four times, or every unit but the LeBeau'd unit. So assuming all goes perfectly and it hits each unit (hopefully four or less) once, I can clear my opponent's board of everything minus the LeBeau'd unit. You must be terribly unlucky to have this happen every time your opponent has played it, but even then... you've only lost 2 SP for the close regeneration, and depending on your SP margin you can choose to revive other killed units, if any (though if it's endgame, you may have run out of copies of the other cards, and then Gowen players might win if your LP drops to 0). Keeping in mind that Gowen usually needs 2-3 turns to save the SP for FT in the first place (disregarding the possible Mad Priest sapping SP from the back), that SP will very likely be available. Meanwhile, I've been set back 5 SP and still need to kill your LeBeau'd unit more times until it dies permanently (cheapest for starter would probably be a Berserk... which would mean another 2 SP for summoning the unit, and 1 SP for the skill). We're back to where we started, except I no longer have FT. I suppose the only good thing I can see about this is that if you have two regenerating LeBeau units, I have a higher chance of knocking away another 2 SP and maybe permanently closing one of them.

Besides, we're not advocating the removal of LeBeau. We just want it nerfed so that I can see Lawtia players without winning streaks of 5+ 90% of the time if they're over level ~2 (which is when I've found most Lawtia players have picked up on how broken LeBeau as SC is).
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Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby Skyress » Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:43 pm

Hakuro de Killer wrote:Here's the thing. You remove LeBeau from Lawtia at this point in the game, it's the same as cutting off a Lawtia user's legs. I don'[t know how many games I would have lost had I not had LeBeau in my Soul Cards. It's the same as removing Zagar, Fire Tornado, and Vordore from Refess, Gowen, and Falkow, respectively. I have lost a LOT of games to those cards and I find them broken. A card with the LeBeau effect on them is easily killed by something that deals direct damage or has the ability Penetrate. I don't care who you are. If you say LeBeau is broken and you don't play Lawtia, look at Zagar, Fire Tornado, and Vordore again and tell me those cards aren't broken without lying, I dare you.

ok then
all of these cards need atleast have a 4 lvl sphere of influence (5 for firetornado) and another 4 sp (5 for firetornado) to use/summon. AD and Zagars SS is only good if ur unit doesnt die. So in general, lebeau is way more broken then all those another cards because lebeau practically makes ur unit invincible especially if used on an animated dead which come with the lawtia starter set. And i've met players who were able to beat me without using lebeau in a lawtia deck. and if u say fire tornado and AD are the legs of gowen and falkrow then u r mistaken, in my perspective i rarely use fire tornado untill late game and by then i already have units like magic dual swoardsman and bear killing axe-man who do alot of dmg. And the other gowen players i've faced dont use fire tornado untill they run out of units which is late game. Vordore is, from what i've seen, only used to give his stat buffs and here and there he will attack but falkrows tank is sea hunter and eagle soldier and sycthe soldier are the main range hitters. I dont really know about zagar though so i'll let some1 who knows more about the refress deck try and find this out
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Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby Hakuro de Killer » Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:07 pm

Skyress wrote:
Hakuro de Killer wrote:Here's the thing. You remove LeBeau from Lawtia at this point in the game, it's the same as cutting off a Lawtia user's legs. I don'[t know how many games I would have lost had I not had LeBeau in my Soul Cards. It's the same as removing Zagar, Fire Tornado, and Vordore from Refess, Gowen, and Falkow, respectively. I have lost a LOT of games to those cards and I find them broken. A card with the LeBeau effect on them is easily killed by something that deals direct damage or has the ability Penetrate. I don't care who you are. If you say LeBeau is broken and you don't play Lawtia, look at Zagar, Fire Tornado, and Vordore again and tell me those cards aren't broken without lying, I dare you.

ok then
all of these cards need atleast have a 4 lvl sphere of influence (5 for firetornado) and another 4 sp (5 for firetornado) to use/summon. AD and Zagars SS is only good if ur unit doesnt die. So in general, lebeau is way more broken then all those another cards because lebeau practically makes ur unit invincible especially if used on an animated dead which come with the lawtia starter set. And i've met players who were able to beat me without using lebeau in a lawtia deck. and if u say fire tornado and AD are the legs of gowen and falkrow then u r mistaken, in my perspective i rarely use fire tornado untill late game and by then i already have units like magic dual swoardsman and bear killing axe-man who do alot of dmg. And the other gowen players i've faced dont use fire tornado untill they run out of units which is late game. Vordore is, from what i've seen, only used to give his stat buffs and here and there he will attack but falkrows tank is sea hunter and eagle soldier and sycthe soldier are the main range hitters. I dont really know about zagar though so i'll let some1 who knows more about the refress deck try and find this out


For one SP, Vordore can increase the power of ALL of his allies by ten for EACH ally. This means that, if you get enough field presence before LeBeau's effect kicks in, you can literally say "F*** you, LeBeau, I have five units, all with 80-90 attack power! Whatcha gonna do now?", which has happened to me more than once.

For Zagar, what good is the defense bonus of LeBeau if you can't break through Zagar?

For Fire Tornado, I only stated that as a singular card that can usually take down LeBeau. If there is another key card for Gowen. Also, your strategy to bring out Fire Tornado late game proves my point that LeBeau can be defeated by this because LeBeau only comes out late game. Also, only one card in a standard Lawtia deck ever has any defensive power, which is Elite Crest Knight, which has only 10. Every other faction has more units with higher defense or the potential to gain high defense.

I haven't heard a peep from any other Lawtia user on how broken Zagar, Fire Tornado, and Vordore are.

On the subject of Animated Dead, the effect Living Dead is horrible in my opinion. For the same effect of the Lycanthrope's effect, but for it to last all the time, you pay 2 SP to use it and it is mandatory. I don't run anything with Living Dead for this reason.

In conclusion to all this, there is a lot of hate for cards like LeBeau and animated dead, but there are cards in the game that are just as bad or worse and nobody complains about them and yet a lot of the other cards in Lawtia can't hold up to cards from the other three spheres for very long without support from LeBeau. Crest Regenerator Knight? Sure it'll last a few turns, but it's easy to take down if you just keep attacking it. The lycanthropes? They become useless during Dawn and Day phases with 0 ATK, 0 DEF, and low HP. Try and attack them then and you lose your problem. Invisible Druid? Anything with speed and range or any damage spell can kill it easily. Falkow units all have range and have effects that allow units to gain AGI.

Now if you look at the other cards from other spheres, you'll se Gowen with their card's ability of Rankup, which increases their power to about one level higher easily, they are very powerful, can deal direct damage, and summon very big things. Falkow can get things out fast, has cards with high range that can grant high speed, a key card that can grant a possible +90 ATK, and cards that can penetrate. Refess relies on defense and has cards like Zagar that gain a crapload of attack power as well as the ability to use certain spells that can seem overpowered such as Holy Light.
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