If You Hate Lebeau

Strategies and Card File Construction

Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby Moratorius » Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:02 pm

Random commentary ensues.

Hakuro de Killer wrote:Also, your strategy to bring out Fire Tornado late game proves my point that LeBeau can be defeated by this because LeBeau only comes out late game.

LeBeau comes out middle-game; 99% of the time, it'll be placed in SC3 (and either SC4 or SC5 if you run dual LeBeau SC, as many do). Thus, you always have at least two copies of several units, meaning Fire Tornado is rarely going to kill enough single copy units that your LP is depleted to 0.

Hakuro de Killer wrote:I haven't heard a peep from any other Lawtia user on how broken Zagar, Fire Tornado, and Vordore are.

Obviously it's because we feel they aren't broken. They require a lot of resources in terms of both SP and setup (e.g. building up many friendly units for Vordore), though... I guess I can agree that Zagar is a bit overpowered, but it's not severely broken like LeBeau is. LeBeau doesn't require anything but for the game to progress in any fashion, as the units that go to the cemetary only strengthen your invincibility when LeBeau appears. There's nothing wrong with strong cards, it's when they outclass everything else available to other new players that there's a problem.

Hakuro de Killer wrote:On the subject of Animated Dead, the effect Living Dead is horrible in my opinion. For the same effect of the Lycanthrope's effect, but for it to last all the time, you pay 2 SP to use it and it is mandatory. I don't run anything with Living Dead for this reason.

Sure it's mandatory, but you only pay it when it gets closed. That doesn't happen often, nor many times; if the miracle occurs that it does, it's at a far greater expense for your opponent than it took for yourself to maintain it.

Hakuro de Killer wrote:In conclusion to all this, there is a lot of hate for cards like LeBeau and animated dead, but there are cards in the game that are just as bad or worse and nobody complains about them and yet a lot of the other cards in Lawtia can't hold up to cards from the other three spheres for very long without support from LeBeau.

It's not just "very long," it's "practically forever." We wouldn't be complaining if it was just "very long" (e.g. if the defense multiplier was reduced, or a change from permanent to some duration).

Hakuro de Killer wrote:Now if you look at the other cards from other spheres, you'll se Gowen with their card's ability of Rankup, which increases their power to about one level higher easily, they are very powerful, can deal direct damage, and summon very big things.

Everything that can deal direct damage takes time, either for summoning (e.g. Berserk), or SP (e.g. Fire Tornado, or "very big things"-- I assume you're talking about cards such as Fire Storm Wyvern with it's 30 direct damage opening skill, though it's up to luck again since it's random target), or isn't enough to kill any unit you'd put LeBeau on (e.g. Salamander's 10hp open skill can't even kill AD).

Hakuro de Killer wrote:...use certain spells that can seem overpowered such as Holy Light.

... not sure while I'm singling out this one thing to comment on, but it's a decent example, I suppose... "Seem" being the keyword here; I've been on the receiving end of this often to my dismay as all the 50+ hp units are revived on their end, but I've never felt it was overpowered since I rarely kill multiple of Refess's tanks at the same time. LeBeau doesn't just "seem" overpowered, it IS overpowered.

In closing, I'm sure that as everyone gets more cards the complaints will drop (Return/Dispel seeming to be the simplest answer, though Gowen is still disadvantaged due to having to raise sphere levels in other colors), but that'll only mean we've regaining somewhat equal footing... meanwhile, every Lawtia deck is stacking up win after win, which means higher ranking as well as more cards as rewards from won treasure battles.
User avatar
Moratorius
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:17 pm
Location: California, US

Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby Gigantorus » Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:35 pm

LeBeau is not overpowered. LeBeau on reanimating units is. I don't mind fighting normal LeBeaued units.
Gigantorus
 
Posts: 121
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:39 am

Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby Hakuro de Killer » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:02 pm

Moratorius wrote:
Hakuro de Killer wrote:Now if you look at the other cards from other spheres, you'll se Gowen with their card's ability of Rankup, which increases their power to about one level higher easily, they are very powerful, can deal direct damage, and summon very big things.

Everything that can deal direct damage takes time, either for summoning (e.g. Berserk), or SP (e.g. Fire Tornado, or "very big things"-- I assume you're talking about cards such as Fire Storm Wyvern with it's 30 direct damage opening skill, though it's up to luck again since it's random target), or isn't enough to kill any unit you'd put LeBeau on (e.g. Salamander's 10hp open skill can't even kill AD).


Now you see, it's not only the Fire Storm Wyvern and Salamanders that deal damage, it's also soul cards resembling the effect of "Deal [Damage: Your *sphere* level x20] to one unit" that most factions seem to thrive on. Cards like that are the perfect anti-LeBeau and from all your complaining, it's like you never even considered that!
User avatar
Hakuro de Killer
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:55 am
Location: Bangor, Maine

Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby Moratorius » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:05 pm

Gigantorus wrote:LeBeau is not overpowered. LeBeau on reanimating units is. I don't mind fighting normal LeBeaued units.

True, but Lawtia is also the deck with the most reanimating units. As someone else mentioned earlier, another possible restriction would be to living units only.

Hakuro de Killer wrote:Now you see, it's not only the Fire Storm Wyvern and Salamanders that deal damage, it's also soul cards resembling the effect of "Deal [Damage: Your *sphere* level x20] to one unit" that most factions seem to thrive on. Cards like that are the perfect anti-LeBeau and from all your complaining, it's like you never even considered that!

I don't consider that, since it doesn't change the fact that it's only one more death and just another -2SP for you. If I had a Berserk ready (which I try to do the when it's near my opponent's 3rd SC), you'd only need 4SP, which you'll have from the natural turn generation plus just the SP from whatever closed unit that triggered LeBeau (often a 3star which has been holding the front line for three iterations), though Fire Tornado+SC is easier to maneuver into place due to the gain of SP through closed units, it often means my field will be empty for a very vulnerable turn... of course, if it works and my opponent for some odd reason doesn't have the SP to keep its LeBeau'd unit reanimating, all is well.

Except for the second LeBeau.
Last edited by Moratorius on Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Moratorius
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:17 pm
Location: California, US

Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby Hakuro de Killer » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:15 pm

Moratorius wrote:
Gigantorus wrote:LeBeau is not overpowered. LeBeau on reanimating units is. I don't mind fighting normal LeBeaued units.

True, but Lawtia is also the deck with the most reanimating units. As someone else mentioned earlier, another possible restriction would be to living units only.


That's fine by me as I don't do that [strike]yet[/strike]. Hell, the only reanimating units I use are the Lycanthropes and they only regenerate at night.
User avatar
Hakuro de Killer
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:55 am
Location: Bangor, Maine

Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby tragulas » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:46 pm

Actually, I have also supported and invested in the game that has netted me some nice returns, I have mainly been playing the lawtia deck I made, and 2 out of 10 times dont get much response. The other eight however.....well just like was mentioned before I get insulted for having a well played game, or even when I lose I get insults a lot. One memorable one came today as the person put in their insult, which was, spending money is lame, "l2p" and of course immediately gave up then returned to the arena, leaving no chance for reply. All I would have said was simply something about supporting the game they play for free, and l2get a job. lol. anyway, I have one a few and I have lost a few, and I have for the most part enjoyed most of them, win or lose. The insults are getting old though. Anyway, back on topic. Lebeau is a nice card.....however can easily be beaten, red decks have direct damage, ie. salamander, wyvern, fire tornado, etc., light has a nice spear woman who penetrates making defense useless as well as dispel, or lion baron if they have enough enemy units out, blue doesnt have much for penetration, however ad can take care of that, lawtia has a few penetration cards, so they can cover that aspect, not too mention a nice counter to lebeau........is lebeau? basically, it can turn the tides, but its not impossible to beat by any means, heck ive had him used a great number of times by me, only to have its effect beaten down like its nothing. I guess I am saying he is a very good ss card, but not that hard to get through by any means, just like a lot of other things in this game, a lot of it is pure luck. Just one humble players opinion.
tragulas
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:32 pm

Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby Eeyore » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:38 am

To Hakuro de Killer-

Like many have said, and I have pointed out thoroughly in the thread I created called "How Does Gowen Survive" Fire Tornado is no answer for Labeua since that only accounts for one kill of -2sp. I have listed the reasons there. If you do not know how to use Labeua to its full potential then yes he is beatable. If you do and still choose not to use him this way I commend you.

It's funny even as a normal card he is highly overpowered with his row attacking ability also which is very similar to a ranked up Brave Soldier from Gowen (which is one of Gowen's few tricks Lawtia has in a single card). Understand that I don't mean he is overpowered by himself when used as a unit, it is when he is used as a unit card with the already great level 3 cards lawtia has and used as a proponent to a SP killing deck in the front row. Play him in the middle game when your opponent is strugling for SP to summon his better cards and you're knocking off 2-3 of them per row attack + your other cards then get to attack the middle and back row of your opponent. Of course when used this way 3 copies are highly valuable. Lawtia is devestatingly overpowered as an all around deck.

And not only do they have the best individual cards they have a lot of cards I would put in the top-10 cards in functionality compared to cost to use them. Zombie Lord needs to be nerfed. If you play an opponent with three of this card you mise well say good game and save your time. How he isn't a level 6 card I will never know.

I think quite a few players that play Lawtia and don't fully understand what others say when they suggest Lawtia is highly overpowered should create a second I.D. with Alteil and play as either Refess and/or Gowen and see how they do against GOOD Lawtia players.

Also you suggested Fire Tornado as Gowen's version of an overpowered card in comparison to Labeau. I'd like to point out that Lawtia has its own version of this same card which is also a 5 Sp cost called Counterattack which brutalizes Gowen. And as others have mentioned Fire Tornado doesn't allow targeting so we can easily hit a Shade 4 times. Counterattack will clear the entire board since Gowen has no defense. Plus it costs so much to use it Gowen is left without resources to combat anything else that arises.

It was stated that Lawtia has the worst defense ratings of any clan by far. I would have to severely disagree as Gowen only has one card I'm aware of in a starter that can even buff for defense which is Dryad. And a lot of us Gowen players don't have room for this card in our deck since we're so preocupied with containing Labeau. Gowen has no cheap answers. 6 SP to use Return 3 into Falkow sphere + 3 to cast the card, 4 SP for Dispel 2 +2 (and you still leave your opponents card on the field and you used 4 sp and do not get a unit on the field), and both of those cards are hard to come by and will leave you lacking resources afterwards when the inevitable Assassin is played in the aftermath.
Eeyore
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby Phades » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:06 pm

Moratorius wrote:
Hakuro de Killer wrote:On the subject of Animated Dead, the effect Living Dead is horrible in my opinion. For the same effect of the Lycanthrope's effect, but for it to last all the time, you pay 2 SP to use it and it is mandatory. I don't run anything with Living Dead for this reason.

Sure it's mandatory, but you only pay it when it gets closed. That doesn't happen often, nor many times; if the miracle occurs that it does, it's at a far greater expense for your opponent than it took for yourself to maintain it.
Easiest fix for this would be to force the unit to close when using a closing skill and have all buffs wipe as a byproduct. Phoenix, for example, is no zombie lord, but given the circumstances of killing machine soul effect, agl boosting soul effects, grimoire like charge, it makes things like zagar seem like a waste of time. Even something simple like regenerator knight is a pain in the butt without high end direct damage or instant death options that some decks simply do not have acess to.

Moratorius wrote:
Hakuro de Killer wrote:...use certain spells that can seem overpowered such as Holy Light.

... not sure while I'm singling out this one thing to comment on, but it's a decent example, I suppose... "Seem" being the keyword here; I've been on the receiving end of this often to my dismay as all the 50+ hp units are revived on their end, but I've never felt it was overpowered since I rarely kill multiple of Refess's tanks at the same time. LeBeau doesn't just "seem" overpowered, it IS overpowered.
Refress tank wipe happens often enough, unless they have constant all unit healing every turn, which effectively mimics defense value.

Moratorius wrote:In closing, I'm sure that as everyone gets more cards the complaints will drop (Return/Dispel seeming to be the simplest answer, though Gowen is still disadvantaged due to having to raise sphere levels in other colors), but that'll only mean we've regaining somewhat equal footing... meanwhile, every Lawtia deck is stacking up win after win, which means higher ranking as well as more cards as rewards from won treasure battles.
I've bought $30 worth of cards via boosters and not once have i had a dispell come up. I am not sinking more money into this game, unless there is a rather compelling reason to keep going within it, like rebalancing and tweaking of some core mechanics.
Phades
 
Posts: 568
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:15 pm

Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby Moratorius » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:35 am

I still don't have Dispell, so it's still practically impossible for my Gowen deck to remove 2-3 LeBeau'd creatures off my opponent's field without the sacrifice of a cow or two to several deities when casting Fire Tornado or timing Assassin... generally both are required if I want to get rid of two... gg if there's three. Anyway, just to hammer home the point, even the Japanese nerfed the card.

https://login.alteil.jp/cardDB/detail.php?id=30 wrote:許されない失敗 (Unforgivable Failure)
敵軍ユニットからランダムで1体選びその[横一列]を[ダメージ:30]する。 (Do [damage: 30] to a random row of enemy units.)


So yes, it's true there are "effective" counters. It's just that those readily available don't work very well (except for Dispell, of which just one copy from the starter is usually enough; Return needs multiple copies for multiple LeBeau, but it's also quite versatile against other decks as well), and those that work best require the mass purchase of boosters... or divine luck.
User avatar
Moratorius
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:17 pm
Location: California, US

Re: If You Hate Lebeau

Postby reydien » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:04 am

actually, I believe the Japanese team buffed the card for the US release. If you look at the Japanese basic set vs us, several of the cards have completely different Soul Skills, and some even have different LP values.
"Select the pistol, and then, select your horse."
User avatar
reydien
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:42 am
Location: Norman, OK

PreviousNext

Return to Annarose's Sanctum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest