Card of the Week 7/28

Strategies and Card File Construction

Re: Card of the Week 7/28

Postby Eeyore » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:46 am

Both cards are rediculous. Fully Regenerating Hp cards are terrible for gaming in my opinion. There are too few answers to counter them when they come out. I believe Pheonix has reasonably high Hp also. How do you kill a card like that multiple times in one turn realistically? You don't, you can only hope to disable or return it. And the other problem with HP fully regenerating cards is that if you cannot take it down in the first turn it comes out the card becomes exponentially stronger. Each turn your opponent gains SP turns into more deaths that their Pheonix/Zombie Lord/Animate Dead card can be revived from. There in lies the problem. Your opponent becomes stronger by doing absolutely nothing, while your deck becomes weaker as you exhaust valuable resources that will most likely be the last things your deck has going for it.

Pheonix is easier than people think to summon with Refess since so many of your units are going to the cemetary that are level 3 or 4 you will be getting a lot of SP in return to use even bigger cards. And there is always the fuzz ball. That card is such a pain I cannot begin to explain how avidly I target that card for death when I face it. Anytime your opponent is wasting a 30Hp damage attack from a card like Eagle Soldier from Falkow instead of using it to hit your front line you are money ahead. I suggest you use 3 copies of the fuzz as well unless you are using it to trigger a +2 SP Soul Card in your first slot to start the match. I think that's a waste of one of your better cards but play what fits you not what others say works best for them. And you will enjoy having the Fuzz to take a crack at picking off Salamanders, Sylphs, Shades etc. Falkow uses those lvl 1 cards in the back rows to boost the attack of Azure Dragon so each one you pick off = -10 attack boost of his ability. Salamanders have 30 Damage Attacks for a level 1. You do not want your front line getting thrashed by such a cheap card.


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Re: Card of the Week 7/28

Postby Grain » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:50 am

Eeyore wrote:Both cards are rediculous. Fully Regenerating Hp cards are terrible for gaming in my opinion. There are too few answers to counter them when they come out. I believe Pheonix has reasonably high Hp also. How do you kill a card like that multiple times in one turn realistically? You don't, you can only hope to disable or return it. And the other problem with HP fully regenerating cards is that if you cannot take it down in the first turn it comes out the card becomes exponentially stronger. Each turn your opponent gains SP turns into more deaths that their Pheonix/Zombie Lord/Animate Dead card can be revived from. There in lies the problem. Your opponent becomes stronger by doing absolutely nothing, while your deck becomes weaker as you exhaust valuable resources that will most likely be the last things your deck has going for it.

Pheonix is easier than people think to summon with Refess since so many of your units are going to the cemetary that are level 3 or 4 you will be getting a lot of SP in return to use even bigger cards. And there is always the fuzz ball. That card is such a pain I cannot begin to explain how avidly I target that card for death when I face it. Anytime your opponent is wasting a 30Hp damage attack from a card like Eagle Soldier from Falkow instead of using it to hit your front line you are money ahead. I suggest you use 3 copies of the fuzz as well unless you are using it to trigger a +2 SP Soul Card in your first slot to start the match. I think that's a waste of one of your better cards but play what fits you not what others say works best for them. And you will enjoy having the Fuzz to take a crack at picking off Salamanders, Sylphs, Shades etc. Falkow uses those lvl 1 cards in the back rows to boost the attack of Azure Dragon so each one you pick off = -10 attack boost of his ability. Salamanders have 30 Damage Attacks for a level 1. You do not want your front line getting thrashed by such a cheap card.


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The starter only comes with 2 copies of fuzz.

The only level 4 card is Zagar, and we never want him to die.

If all of my tanks are dying, how much use will Phoenix even be? All it takes is two or three Gowen cards to kill it before it even gets its turn, cards which will probably be on the field that late in the game.
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Re: Card of the Week 7/28

Postby Phades » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:38 am

Eeyore wrote:Both cards are rediculous. Fully Regenerating Hp cards are terrible for gaming in my opinion. There are too few answers to counter them when they come out. I believe Pheonix has reasonably high Hp also. How do you kill a card like that multiple times in one turn realistically? You don't, you can only hope to disable or return it. And the other problem with HP fully regenerating cards is that if you cannot take it down in the first turn it comes out the card becomes exponentially stronger. Each turn your opponent gains SP turns into more deaths that their Pheonix/Zombie Lord/Animate Dead card can be revived from. There in lies the problem. Your opponent becomes stronger by doing absolutely nothing, while your deck becomes weaker as you exhaust valuable resources that will most likely be the last things your deck has going for it.
You are overlooking something rather important with phoenix. The revival trait costs 3 to use, which means you can only use it every other turn. With 90 hp, any non-refress starter can take it out with 3 level 3s or in the instance of gowen the correct level 2 units. The unit costs 6 to begin with, so that covers the cost of 2 of those level 3 units already. Zombie lord is an entirely different animal though, since he can regenerate indefinitely every turn, assuming your opponent brings out nothing on top of being able to do 100 damage any turn he isn't being threatened. Animated dead is a pain for early killing machine triggers, but otherwise it is easily taken out by almost every level 2 card in the game before it can act.

Seriously, i can't count the number of times i've seen phoenix removed from play the turn it arrives or the following turn through means of shade use, azure dragon, aqua sorcerer /w undine (this is wtf stupid strong btw), and fire tornado/arrow with basic unit support forcing 2 regenerations in the same turn. Killing machine SS reduces the number of threats a unit like this has, but that is more an issue with le beau.

Eeyore wrote:Phoenix is easier than people think to summon with Refess since so many of your units are going to the cemetery that are level 3 or 4 you will be getting a lot of SP in return to use even bigger cards. And there is always the fuzz ball. That card is such a pain I cannot begin to explain how avidly I target that card for death when I face it. Anytime your opponent is wasting a 30Hp damage attack from a card like Eagle Soldier from Falkow instead of using it to hit your front line you are money ahead.
You are overlooking that the refress player is a turn and money behind since level 3s and 4s are going to the cemetery and the opponent has the luxury of targeting units, draining SP, or simply out damaging before refress can strike back which in turn prevents damage received in the long run. Phoenix is a stall play that can make up for 1-2 LP depending on the situation, but that's about it assuming it isn't already horribly outnumbered when it hits the field.
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Re: Card of the Week 7/28

Postby DanTheTimid » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:13 pm

Phades hit it exactly, Phoenix really is a pretty weak card, especially when you compare it to Zombie Lord (though you could also argue Zombie Lord is a little on the strong side). Cards of the same level should be pretty similar in power/stats. If a card is a level higher, it should be stronger then the lower card, and if a card is 2 levels higher the gap in power should be gigantic. Now it can be harder to compare two card if they work completely differently, or if one focuses on hitting groups of things while another focuses on hitting single targets, but Zombie Lord and Phoenix have the same main effect and both focus on hitting a single target so its actually easy to compare them. To help illustrate I'll provide an example of Zombie lord and Phoenix in a 1 on 1 fight. Keep in mind phoenix is not 1 but 2 levels higher then Zombie Lord, so if things are balanced this shouldn't even been a match, Phoenix should dominate.

If I wanted to be fair I'd pick a random number of SP to start with but instead I'm actually going to favor Phoenix (even though he shouldn't need it) and pick a multiple of three, 6 sp to make sure he can use his ability at least twice.

Turn 1, Phoenix player 6 sp, ZL player 6 sp.
Phoenix just barely outspeeds Zombie lord, 2 AGI to 1, so Phoenix acts first. Phoenix only has one action, attack, which he does dealing 30 damage reducing Zombie Lord to 20 Hp.
Zombie Lord takes his turn, he uses 1 sp for Wrath of the King of Death, dealing 100 damage to Phoenix and causing him to close. Phoenix's close skill activates and he's revived.
End of Turn 1, Phoenix player at 3 sp, ZL player at 5 sp.

Turn 2, Phoenix player at 5 sp, ZL player at 7 sp.
Phoenix goes first again and again has no other note worthy option but to attack. 30 damage causes zombie lord to close. Zombie lord's close skill activates and he's revived.
Zombie Lord takes his turn, he uses 1 sp for Wrath of the King of Death, dealing 100 damage to Phoenix and causing him to close. Phoenix's close skill activates and he's revived.
End of Turn 2, Phoenix player at 2 sp, ZL player at 4 sp.

Turn 3, Phoenix player at 4 sp, ZL player at 6 sp.
Phoenix just barely outspeeds Zombie lord, 2 AGI to 1, so Phoenix acts first. Phoenix only has one action, attack, which he does dealing 30 damage reducing Zombie Lord to 20 Hp.
Zombie Lord takes his turn, he uses 1 sp for Wrath of the King of Death, dealing 100 damage to Phoenix and causing him to close. Phoenix's close skill activates and he's revived.
End of Turn 3, Phoenix player at 1 sp, ZL player at 5 sp.

Turn 4, Phoenix player at 3 sp, ZL player at 7 sp.
Phoenix goes first again and again has no other note worthy option but to attack. 30 damage causes zombie lord to close. Zombie lord's close skill activates and he's revived.
Zombie Lord takes his turn, he uses 1 sp for Wrath of the King of Death, dealing 100 damage to Phoenix and causing him to close. Phoenix's close skill activates and he's revived.
End of Turn 4, Phoenix player at 0 sp, ZL player at 4 sp.

Turn 5, Phoenix player at 2 sp, ZL player at 6 sp.
Phoenix just barely outspeeds Zombie lord, 2 AGI to 1, so Phoenix acts first. Phoenix only has one action, attack, which he does dealing 30 damage reducing Zombie Lord to 20 Hp.
Zombie Lord takes his turn, he uses 1 sp for Wrath of the King of Death, dealing 100 damage to Phoenix and causing him to close. Phoenix's no longer has enough sp to revive and dies.

So I stacked everything in Phoenix's favor... and it still lost! If I was to pick say, 1-2 sp for them both to have, Zombie lord would win turn 1. If I was to pick 3 sp for them both to have, Zombie lord would win turn 2! To put it simply, Zombie Lord beats Phoenix in any 1 on 1 match up. And again, Zombie lord is not the same level, not even 1 level lower, he's 2 levels lower then Phoenix! The only X-factor that gets over looked in a 1 on 1 battle is that Phoenix has RNG while Zombie Lord does not, but with only 30 attack Phoenix isn't exactly a huge offensive threat even if you hide him in the back or try to pick of back row things from the front. That's really what it all comes down to, why Zombie Lord is good and Phoenix is trash. Zombie Lord doesn't just stick around to drag out the game, every turn he sticks around he's potentially killing a unit with his 100 attack ability. Phoenix has no such threat, even if you build up a gigantic amount of sp your opponent can effectively ignore him until he's the last unit left at which point he can focus on building up his field and over whelming the Phoenix to drain away that sp.
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Re: Card of the Week 7/28

Postby Logress » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:58 pm

I'll post more on my experiences playing Refess later, but to be quick let's analyze that one on one matchup in more detail. First, it took 5 turns. If you've got more SP (reasonable in a conservatively played Refess tank deck, in my experience so far), an SP generator (I usually save one for this part of the game) multiple copies of Phoenix (a rarity 1 card) or a LeBeau soul skill, this could easily become 10+ turns. I also think that 6 SP remaining on the Lawtia side in the endgame is very generous. It indicates that Refess some how clobbered a whole lot of the Lawtia cards and sent them to the Cemetery at one point, which many people have noted is not too likely. Second, notice that Phoenix's attacks were totally meaningless. They didn't even slow down the rate at which ZL did damage. Also note that ZL had all one-hit kills, and never came close to running out of SP. That's very interesting. First of all, that means that things don't get any harder for Phoenix even if ZL has a LeBeau soul skill on, or even if the enemy has 20 SP saved up. It also means that things aren't any harder for the phoenix even if the enemy has a bunch of other units on the field as well, (as long as they can't do over 90 DMG combined). It also means that if you do happen to have a LeBeau on your Phoenix and you've got a defense of 70 or 80 (quite possible considering how easily Lawtia sends your cards to the Cemetery), then you can just Rest and guarantee survival until turn 30.

Okay, so Phoenix isn't very impressive one on one with ZL. In fact, he seems a little pathetic. But against a zillion SP, the Zombie Lord with LeBeau's Soul Skill and four other units on the field backing it up, Phoenix can still do the same job for 5-10 rounds -- and maybe even till turn 30. It's a rarity one that can take a surefire murderous loss and turn it into a stalemate or a Draw all by itself -- even with the two most powerful cards in the game right now as its enemies (ZL and LeBeau). (Imagine if you still had one or two other cards left at this point to actually, you know, do something.) Now, I don't know if I'd call that a great card, but it is kind of cool.
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Re: Card of the Week 7/28

Postby Phades » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:17 pm

Logress wrote:I'll post more on my experiences playing Refess later, but to be quick let's analyze that one on one matchup in more detail. First, it took 5 turns. If you've got more SP (reasonable in a conservatively played Refess tank deck, in my experience so far), an SP generator (I usually save one for this part of the game) multiple copies of Phoenix (a rarity 1 card) or a LeBeau soul skill, this could easily become 10+ turns. I also think that 6 SP remaining on the Lawtia side in the endgame is very generous. It indicates that Refess some how clobbered a whole lot of the Lawtia cards and sent them to the Cometary at one point, which many people have noted is not too likely. Second, notice that Phoenix's attacks were totally meaningless. They didn't even slow down the rate at which ZL did damage. Also note that ZL had all one-hit kills, and never came close to running out of SP. That's very interesting. First of all, that means that things don't get any harder for Phoenix even if ZL has a LeBeau soul skill on, or even if the enemy has 20 SP saved up. It also means that things aren't any harder for the phoenix even if the enemy has a bunch of other units on the field as well, (as long as they can't do over 90 DMG combined). It also means that if you do happen to have a LeBeau on your Phoenix and you've got a defense of 70 or 80 (quite possible considering how easily Lawtia sends your cards to the Cemetery), then you can just Rest and guarantee survival until turn 30.
Okay, so Phoenix isn't very impressive one on one with ZL. In fact, he seems a little pathetic. But against a zillion SP, the Zombie Lord with LeBeau's Soul Skill and four other units on the field backing it up, Phoenix can still do the same job for 5-10 rounds -- and maybe even till turn 30. It's a rarity one that can take a surefire murderous loss and turn it into a stalemate or a Draw all by itself -- even with the two most powerful cards in the game right now as its enemies (ZL and LeBeau). (Imagine if you still had one or two other cards left at this point to actually, you know, do something.) Now, I don't know if I'd call that a great card, but it is kind of cool.
Phoenix is a relatively functional card. Zombie lord is a really good card. That is about the main difference here. Even if you have 2 walls out, the lawita side contains instant death effects sending cards directly to the cemetary which can circumvent the entire nature of phoneix regeneration. This is only a consideration when looking at the "big picture" though and making assumptions regarding any deck possibilities etc. The only real issue on the refress side of things would be, does it matter if the zombie lord is buffed with le beau or not, since it would require one turn of dispell to remedy assuming the SP cost could be afforded at that time.

When i am able, i try to turn phoenix into a lion baron via charge and tank it up, thus reducing the potentcy gap most refress units have. Unfortunately the 3 sp cost and things like instant removal to cemetary or return to card file options cripple that attempt every single time and basically reinforces that i lost the match, instead of trying to turn it back around again. This is the most frustrating part while playing refress for me at the moment. At those stages of the game, even simple things like puffballs that should help you sustain an offence end up being a liability LP wise due to how advanced the SP spending options are.
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Re: Card of the Week 7/28

Postby DanTheTimid » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:33 pm

Considering Zombie lord is level 4 and Phoenix is level 6, Lawtia had to spend 8 sp total to get a zombie lord out, Refess had to spend 12 total, thats already 4 sp in Lawtia's advantage. Whats more, Refesses sp generators are slow and if killed fast enough don't provide any sp advantage at all, conversely Shade alone, even if we ignore Lawtia's other sp advantage generators, provides an instant +1 sp advantage in lawtias favor (assuming if it nuked the full 2 sp but if refess is trying to stack up sp for phoenix its going to be pretty easy to nuke it). Overall I think if anything I was being generous giving Refess even SP with Lawtia, in my experience against Lawtia decks as a Refess player I tend to be the one at the sp dis-advantage and struggling to get large numbers as shades and other effects burn it away. The neutering Will-o-Wisp got pretty much broke the sp balance between Lawtia and Refess, shifting it in Lawtia's favor. Doesn't mean Lawtia's necessarily superior to Refess, but refess has to out muscle them with less sp because lawtia just has better options right now for generating sp advantage in their favor.

Regardless for me, Phoenix just doesn't do enough for a level 6. If he was a level 4 like Zombie Lord I wouldn't have any complaints, sure Zombie Lords better in my example but there still close enough that you could call it a toss up, but being a level 6 Phoenix should be WAY better then level 4 Zombie Lord, and he's not.
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Re: Card of the Week 7/28

Postby Eeyore » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:39 pm

You both have valid points but are being very narrow minded with the usages of Pheonix.

What is Refess' main strategies? Defense! Buffing! High Damage Ranged attackers!

You're telling me you can't think of a way to buff Pheonix?

I completely agree with you Dan. Zombie Lord is my least favorite card in the game. Pound for pound he crushes all opposition. There are SC's like Invisible Druid that can possibly send him to the graveyard, but those cards are just as likely to hit your card so its too much of a risk especially since you have to play it as a SC every game, not just against Lawtia/Zombie Lord users since you will not know who you'll be facing in advance.

How about a Raise Shield or if you have some decent cards still left in the front you could summon a Boy Combat Priest or Dryad's like so many Refess players use, even late Soul Cards that offer stat boosts could be deadly. There are many cards like Azure Dragon that offer +attack.

I agree for the most part, Pheonix isn't a retardedly dominating card like Zombie Lord. You can't simply pump up your Refess Sphere to 6 and then use him at will to win the game. You have to use some discretion. Not all situations will call for it to be played. That's how most cards are at high levels though. Counterattack, Fire Tornado, Tempest, Cyclone all cost high SP to cast and are very situational. Pheonix is right on par with Efreet and Djinni except for the Hp regeneration skill it has. I'm not debating its value compared to rarity. Take that up with the GM's not me. It has uses and its up to you to find them if you want to take advantage of it since it is currently the highest HP regenerating card in the game. Falkow doesn't have one, yet like Phades suggested doesn't need one as long as Aqua Sorcerer is in their deck, if not then Falkow will have to dominate the board early on with Azure Dragon to beat you once its out (excluding Soul Cards to miminize complication in theory). Gowen has answers from their Fire Grimoire's but I'd wager most of them will be played earlier in the match against Zagar than betting on the fact that you Refess players have Pheonix waiting in the wings.

In the current state of the game like Logress said most users are Lawtia or Gowen. I see Pheonix as having greater value when played against Refess or Lawtia. Against Gowen you'll probably only end up playing this card and winning when you already have the edge on your opponent somehow which won't be often. Falkow plays so differently depending on the user that all of your cards effectiveness will depend upon their skill and deck build.

Good luck!
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Re: Card of the Week 7/28

Postby Logress » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:00 pm

Even though Lawtia has its little tricks to gain momentary SP advantages, a lot of them use slash and burn tactics, and at least one or two of those shades are going to be very predictable and easy to avoid. Then, if you don't send them off to the Cemetery they don't get their 1 SP back and they have a useless unit taking up space. As a Refess it might be tempting to burn SP as well on things like Lapierre or round after round of Light Spearwoman, but I find it's best to invest. Spend your SP on bringing out big cards so you can keep them around until they're done and then use that SP again. Also, SP generators never cost you SP, because you get it back when they die. Think of your SP like an avalanche, slowly gaining in momentum over the course of the game until it can roll over your enemy. In total, it's not always about who gets more SP mathematically, it's the mentality of a Refess Tank deck versus a Lawtia deck. Invest for the endgame, he won't. And if he does, like the above examples show, the best it can get him is a draw.
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Re: Card of the Week 7/28

Postby Phades » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:15 pm

Eeyore wrote:What is Refess' main strategies? Defense! Buffing! High Damage Ranged attackers!

You're telling me you can't think of a way to buff Pheonix?
Phoenix can't win the game all by its self, even if buffed, unless the game was already close or I had an advantage to begin with. You also have to remeber that every turn spent buffing the unit, is a turn draining SP away from it being able to regenerate or bring out other units to help support the phoenix. Dryads late game can be a liability, but if phoenix comes out mid game it is possible. The reality with the card is that it wants to run with a le beau effect, so that it can play more seamlessly into the tank strategy late in the game, but timing is an issue with a card as expensive as phoenix. Basically, the cards have to be roughly timed when a card like lion baron or dragon rider move to the cemetary, but have other units to stall while phoeonix is brought out in the following turn assuming there is no SP disruption in the meantime.

Also, i am not entirely certain what you meant about invisible druid hitting your own cards. Cards like soul bind are designed specifically to make that effect potent. There is no guess work involved unless your opponent is also lawita and plays soul bind for a similar strategy, in which case the argument is null in regard to phoenix.

Eeyore wrote:Against Gowen you'll probably only end up playing this card and winning when you already have the edge on your opponent somehow which won't be often.
This is commonly when the card is the most useful.
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