So I think it's clear what the Tournament taught us.

Strategies and Card File Construction

So I think it's clear what the Tournament taught us.

Postby slashzero » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:02 am

Rare Lawtia cards = ridiculously imbalanced.

So I'm sure people have noticed since I've run into the same card file... oh, 4 to 6 times already out of my 22 games. Shade -> Midnight Warrior -> Ruler of Crest -> etc. is ridiculously strong and hard to counter. Refess doesn't really have anything on it (And adding a couple Refess cards like Solar Prince to a file would just weaken the deck versus other tactics), Gowen's best shot is Blitz Soldier, except then that's a dice roll with the odds against you. Brave Warrior backfires since these files run a level 2 return card first soul, so even if you put off killing the Shade he's gone. Falkow just can't get enough firepower out before it gets stomped by Ruler of Crest's targeted attack or Lycanthropes. I've considered using Tempest or Cyclone but it just takes too much sp you don't have (especially with the occasional Shade played on you). And even if you somehow KO Ruler of Crest 3 times to stop the Lycanthrope+Midnight Warrior onslaught, then you still have to deal with Annarose giving buffs from the back row. To make it all worse SP is almost never a problem for these decks since both Ruler of Crest and Annarose revive for 0 sp, Midnight Warrior is an incredible tank, and then Regenerator Knight comes in to join the frey. The only strategy I've found that has some merit (but not enough to win) is to fill soul cards with tons of 30 damage attacks, since Lycanthropes/Ruler of Crest/Annarose will all go down to that.

So, I ask of you, my fellow strategists, what effective counter to this strategy is there?

After several card file revisions I've come to the conclusion that the only counter that doesn't rely on lots of luck is using the same file, more or less, and then out-guessing your opponent enough to take the lead by getting Annarose out first (and maybe Ruler of Crest if you're doing well), since the nighttime bonus will apply to both fields. There's tons of mind games, stratagems, and other things this would entail, but my point is: when it seems like the only effective counter to a strategy is to copy that strategy, something's very imbalanced.

So, prove me wrong. Tell me there's a way to beat these files, besides assembling a similar one.
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Re: So I think it's clear what the Tournament taught us.

Postby Eeyore » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:29 am

Ok typing in the dark doesn't work so well. Hopefully this isn't a double post.

Gowen can easily put Lawtia in its place in this format. The trick is to keep running out more level 2 cards (Magic Dual Sword Wielder if you can fit her in) as fast as possible.

You want to force your opponent to waste SP reviving the Lycanthropes with their Auto skill as well as between rounds when your Soul Cards trigger and you kill off Eskatia before his Start skill activates. That is the key by the way. Clear the board in these rounds, time your soul cards with what you're going to play in the round they activate. Salamanders are your best friend.

Open Katrina w/3 into Gowen. If Lawtia opens Shade then you counter in round 2 with either Monk or the non-starter level 2 that has 2 range/2 agility/60hp/30 att. Save your Brave Soldiers and Panther Souls for later since your opponent will most likely expect you to kill off the Shade placed in the front row triggering their first Soul Card which will be a targeting type of damage dealer most likely.

The Monks are your safest risk/reward play early on in round 2 or 3. I prefer Monk over the other card since Agility is your best friend. Summon Salamanders between odd rounds where you can't summon what you are saving up for and take out anything you can with 10hp left or reduce a 50hp or 30hp card in the front row to make it easier for Katrina and/or Monk to kill them off.

Place Salamanders in the front row so they get attacked instead of your level 2's. DO NOT REVIVE THEM! (only revive when you already have field control and aren't worried about clearing your opponents side in the next turn or so). They have more value to you dead than alive early on (that is if you have the right Soul Cards in place).

Field control is the key to this game and is how every deck wins besides the cheesy life regenerators or Killing Machine buffed units. In this tournament it is less likely that your match will devolve into this if you put one DISPEL into your card file for safe keeping.

If you're playing against Lawtia with Lawtia you don't even need to bother killing Eskatia off. He helps your cards as much as theirs. Summon your own Night time heroes like the Lycanthropes, Moonlight Warrior, & Castle Wight's.

Good luck. If you want more of an explanation on anything just ask. There are better players than myself that play and most of what I've learned is from watching what they do to beat me then assimilating that into my own style. I tweak what they use to my own ends. You should do the same. A nice combo you see is something you should think about using yourself. Always consider the timing of things and how they fit into your own deck at the same time. Is there a better way of using card combo's? What could my opponent have done better to beat me? If you think along these lines you'll be one step ahead and will beat them to the punch.

Good luck!

;a40
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Re: So I think it's clear what the Tournament taught us.

Postby Susanoo » Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:03 am

I agree that lawtia is uber strong with that eskatia backing them up.

I havent tried the gowen deck so i dont know much about it. I play with falkow in this tourney and spend my time losing to the same combo over and over. the best counter i found for this is by playing witch + sylph combo early. what i found is the popular starting move would be either shade or lycanthrope. either way I start with witch. if the enemy start with lycan, blow it off the next turn with sylph. bad news is if the enemy start with shade in the 2nd turn. you wont be able to bounce it. but it rarely happens as they tend to go with eskatia in the 2nd turn. if the enemy start with shade, kill it, and the next turn play haste soldier. so haste soldier will be your traditional early tank for a while. for you to get out witch queen and sea hunter. the goal is to set sea hunter with permanent 50 def. the only way to do this is to outwit all their shades, and always rest your sea hunter. keep using your witch to bounce off eskatia or lycan depending on the situation, but dont waste time to buff it with sylph or undine this time. focus on getting your sea hunter buffed. and yes, witch queen alone wont be enough for this. I'd say there might be some times where it's better to put off a single agi on the witch queen before she start to buff the sea hunter, though i dont recommend this. okay so it wont be fast enough for us to keep sea hunter alive to get it up to 50 def. so your best bet is dryad. if things goes well, you can get this up in 2 turns. the fastest you get your 50 def sea hunter would be turn 5 or 6. your game up to this turn is to stay away from the shade, and bounce eskatia if you have the chance (this will almost never happen so let your witch die to start up your soul skill). but this wont just end this way. there's always more than a very big chance that your enemy will play out dispel or assassin at the soul card. i'd say try to always slash off their soul cards if you have the chance as assassin is your worst friend here. the purpose of getting 50 def sea hunter is to give you some time to build up your own combo. I use rubia and time it with def buffing soul cards, such as kurina and lebeau. and they work pretty well. but there might be better combos i dont know of.

and before you go off trying, i'd say this counter doesnt work very well. you need loads of stored luck in order for this to succeed. I only get this to work 1 time but i still lose the game (assassin).

and yes, building this will get you at disadvantage for fighting falkow. (not sure for refess or gowen since i rarely see them).
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Re: So I think it's clear what the Tournament taught us.

Postby thailehuy » Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:06 am

Just because some strategies are strong doesn't mean it is unbeatable

I managed to play on par with someone using similar deck as you mentioned (he has 2 instead of 3 eskatias).

+ Using Gowen:
Your best opening is combat monk + dryad + salamander, dryad will help the monk from being one-hitted by regen knight/moonlight warrior, dyrad and salamander will served as "sacrifice" to activate your first few SS (I usually use exploding spore that deal 40 dmg and +10 att to all friendly units). Put out Dual wielder ASAP, since her 2 skills can help you manipulate the front line (-3 agi or -20 att is really better than you can imagine).

From then is all up to your strategy. One bit of advice: do NOT kill eskatia during your turn. Use your SS or opening skill to kick him out of battle, then your opponent cannot revive him, and battle time is not night any more :)

+ Using Falkow:
Keep pummeling eskatia using eagle soldier/scythe soldier, use undine/sylph to back up that process. Sylph/undine are also sacrifice

+ Using Refess:
Sorry IMO Refess die to lawtia, HARD, even no need for rare cards

+ Using Lawtia:
Lilith, Magic doll and invisible druid are what you need. Flesh recycle and soul bind are there to back you up.

As you guessed, direct - HP skills and penetration are the key to victory


That strategy is only unbeatable if the Iczer play Lebeau SS on a zombie lord, but even then you still have return or assassin ;)
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Re: So I think it's clear what the Tournament taught us.

Postby Nai_Hime » Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:19 am

As falkow I've lost to this twice and beaten it twice and it all hinges on killing the guy that sets it to night. You need Phoenix Warrior and Scythe soldier. The Lycanthropes revive cost is so low hitting them is a waste of time, use slyph to buff the phoenix warrior and do a targeted attack on the guy every single turn.

Once it's dead you've probably lost 2 pheonix warriors and 2 scythes and you're on the decline but as long as the next round isn't night time you can wipe out the rest of the lycanthropes and pull out a sea monster. Move the scythe off the front row and enjoy a normal game. When your pheonix or scythe die replace them with a deep sea squid/lightning girl/paladin which ever high level card you picked. Drop a return on the enemy where applicable and await the inevitable lebeu on a level 4 card. Then kill it.

Once you kill the night setting guy this deck seems to fall apart. So targeted damage soul cards and targeting troops are the way to glory.
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Re: So I think it's clear what the Tournament taught us.

Postby neonsun » Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:53 am

LAWTIA RULE !!! (always wanted to say that)

well i m not going to get to deep into this because as u see u ve had many answers telling you that eskatia is easily beatable.

However allow me to remind you that yeeeees (i swear its not a rumor its actually true !!) Lawtia are a SP STEALING decks and yeeeees the deck becomes truly strong only at night , and yeeees Lawtia (till now) are the only deck with revive ability !!

Also i m sure u have also noticed that most of the decks have amazing 4 and 5 star cards (that is why they are rare) , u just gota use "what god gave ya"

The truth (folrart arena) is much different from this tournament, and in folrart a lot of players have become used to trampling Lawtia with multiple copies of brave+soul multiple returns etc... without using a single ounce of strategy (then again it might be one lol).

now that lawtia decks can fight back blow for blow ,people start calling this deck broken LOL...thats funny

............everybody hates the dark side :(

In any case don't worry , YOUR NIGHTMARE IS ALMOST OVER ! (2 more days)
HAving molerat meat for breakfast lunch and dinner ....Cheers !!!!
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Re: So I think it's clear what the Tournament taught us.

Postby EvilGenius » Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:37 pm

thailehuy wrote:+ Using Refess:
Sorry IMO Refess die to lawtia, HARD, even no need for rare cards


Am I the only one who sees something seriously wrong with this statement? I agree with it, but is this just something we have to accept until future expansions?
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Re: So I think it's clear what the Tournament taught us.

Postby Grain » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:08 pm

EvilGenius wrote:
thailehuy wrote:+ Using Refess:
Sorry IMO Refess die to lawtia, HARD, even no need for rare cards


Am I the only one who sees something seriously wrong with this statement? I agree with it, but is this just something we have to accept until future expansions?


Consult DanTheTimid.

From what I've gathered, he has a very high win rate with Refess.

Although, once he got to the Folrart arena, he's been complaining a lot more...
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Re: So I think it's clear what the Tournament taught us.

Postby Eeyore » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:55 pm

The Refess card that changes battle time to Morning is a nice counter to Eskatia. Try it out.
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Re: So I think it's clear what the Tournament taught us.

Postby shyster » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:58 pm

How do those work if both eskatia and the Prince are out? They are both start skills so is it just a luck roll, or something else?
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