"broken iron bomb"

[Phades]

(Originally found here http://www.alteil.com/forum/index.php?f=15&t=169&rb_v=viewtopic&start=90#p5413 )

I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but with the EX cards, i was curious if anyone devised a way to deliberiately manipulate the broken iron soldier's SS with moon and soul noirweiden. Reference Moon and Soul / Noirweiden EX: Broken Iron Soldier / XXXX

For example, have the initial soul skill be a 2LP or possibly a 3LP card and play normally. Then, before or on the turn the 2nd LP is taken, bring out Noirweiden.

An example of SS setup to make this work without too much detriment to the player.

1-SS- Phoenix (Use this to remove any level 3 or lower card on your side when Noirweiden is played)
OR
1-SS- Bellydancer / Kurina (To make Noirweiden more lethal and less likely to be weenied out)
(other alternatives exist)
2-SS- EX: Broken Iron Soldier / XXXX

3-SS- EX: Broken Iron Soldier / XXXX
(these 2 SS are designed to wipe the board while noirweiden hits anything that survives and are triggered by her regeneration ability aka broken iron bomb)

option a) 4-SS- Assassin (used to remove Noirweiden to save your last few LP and elminate anything nasty brought out via SP surge caused by the broken iron bomb)
5-SS- Any 2 LP card would work here.

option b) 4-SS- Any card that produces an effect + sp gain other than the revival and healing skills, unless intentionally using level 3 units durring the broken iron bombs and used with the resurection /w +SP cards. Use the SP gain to enable the use of Counterattack and sacrifice Noirweiden to it in order to wipe out the board a third time, while sparing your last few LP.
5-SS- Any SS with LP and a useful effect should work here.

option c) 4-SS- Phoenix Gives a 3 death swing for Noirweiden while allowing normal play and returns her to your hand preventing LP loss into the 5th and final player LP.
5-SS- Any Useful SS would work here, DD would probably be preferable to keep the opposing board small, closed, or engaged.

option d) 4-SS- EX: Broken Iron Soldier / XXXX

5-SS- Phoenix ("Balls of steel" play leaving the player with 1LP left and clearing Noirweiden from the field following 3 consecutive broken iron bombs. This would require the Lawita player to rely heavily upon eliete crest knight and zombie lord or higher level units while noirweiden is out on the field, then attempt to mop up late game with standard level 3 tactics. Alternative option exists to leave 1 unit on the field of level 3 or less when Noirweiden is brought into play, so that the broken iron bombs close the unit and it can be sacrificed to trigger the 4th SS in the chain to help completely wipe the field following the resurection phase.)

Thoughts?

[CalebTheWise]

Mmm... not a big Lawtia player, but my gut says no. One, it requires your entire soul row allocated specifically for the combo, and since your Soul Row is the main way you turn around a bad game, you're essentially leaving yourself defenseless to pull this off. Two, the combo doesn't do anywhere near enough to justify the investment. Wiping the board is good, yes, but if you don't have a plan for the next turn, your opponent will just revive the characters and smash you. And if you've already lost 3 LP to trigger your first card, your opponent also most likely has a level 4 on the field, immune to XXXX SC. And Three, Norweiden is a Soul Card or nothing. Playing a 10DEF/20HP character that steals your LP to stay alive in more or less equivalent to hitting the "Give Up" button. Your opponent WILL find a way to turn her against you.

[Phades]

Conceptually, you are deliberately having the LP loss to regen to trigger the soldiers while having her hit hard enough to bring down anything the soldiers don't hit and thus reducing the opponent's board to 1-2 units. Remember, this does reside within a file that uses shades natively, keeping the total possible revived down to 1-2 units maximum, thus forcing LP loss early. Like other cards such as assassin or le beau, i think timing is the biggest problem, which is why i was trying to design fail safes into the setup such as counter attack or phoenix.

Two scenarios i had in mind when i was suggesting this originally would include the brave/soul combo supported by magic dual sword or the AD rush mid->endgame. In the instance of gowen, both units will act before Noirweden gets to act and both have enough hitting power to kill her, which triggers the two soul skills. This will effectively close the entire board on the gowen side and leaves only enough SP for them to revive 2 units if a shade was played that round or if they chose to bring a new unit into play. Should any level 3 or under unit (barring moonlight warrior at night) be on the field when this occured, it would be closed as well, but if there was anything left to strike back following the 60 damage swing, in one style of the deck you could revive the closed unit and play counter attack in the following round due to the 4 sp swing closing any units brought back and leaving you with a feild advantage.

In the instance of falkow, it is likely that Noirweden will act last as well and cause a similar situation closing everything except AD and sea hunter, which either could be engaged via soul bind to allow noirweden to press the advantage of a counter attack closing one of those units as well and make the AD effect not as impressive in the following rounds having cleared all undine, slpyh, song maiden, scythe warrior, and eagle warrior from the table.

The variations i provided would be tweaks to the possible timings involved or need for damage with noirweden on the field. I suppose ultimately it would come down to if you could force the opponent to burn through LP as fast as you would be while playing the deck and maintain a feild advantage in doing so.

[Candi]

It's interesting to say the least.

It's also risky - you need to be forcing their LP to drop faster then yours, and yours is going down in a HURRY. And if they come out alive after those bombs you are right - you need a contingency plan because you have a self-mutilating angel on the field and they have units to slap her with.

You didn't provide a fleshed out deck, which makes it hard to make suggestions or comment except on the basic idea. Now, I read the original post two days ago so I may have missed something, but would LeBeau not slam you? If they revive a unit, LeBeau it you are done. Because the XXXX SC is damage, not armour piercing, and neither is your angel.

Another issue I can see is dealing with a larger enemy force. If they have SP generation SC's then they may be able to do more revival then you could allow for - you only have 3 shades (and only so many LP) and you can't use Mad Priest's when you start the bomb.

Also, enemy SC's. Say I run the following SC's:
1 - Combat Monk
2 - Moonlight Warrior
3 - Moonlight Warrior
4 - Moonlight Warrior
5 - Efreet
Now, You are running a pile of 1 LP SC's and you wipe my army out with your bomb as expected. So, when it comes time to revive I just can't do it... I lose 4 LP from all of the units I couldn't revive... So, then - my monk SC triggers... Moon and Soul goes down - up and you lose 1 LP - Bomb goes my revived units die. Moonlight Triggers - Moon and Soul goes down - you assassin or other SC triggers and either you and I both have no units or Moon and Soul gets buffed, whatever. Next round, if you still have her, I lose two more LP and guess who dies again.

I think the problem with this kind of thing is that it requires you to lose LP first, and you are finger crossing that they can't revive three times (which is illogical). You only get two bursts of the bomb, and so potentially they will have units left to beat on you with, and you took a self-inflicted beating.

So, interesting idea - but all in all I think it's too gimicky to be effective.

[Phades]

Now, I read the original post two days ago so I may have missed something, but would LeBeau not slam you? If they revive a unit, LeBeau it you are done. Because the XXXX SC is damage, not armour piercing, and neither is your angel.

Another issue I can see is dealing with a larger enemy force. If they have SP generation SC's then they may be able to do more revival then you could allow for - you only have 3 shades (and only so many LP) and you can't use Mad Priest's when you start the bomb.

This is why i was saying timing is an issue. If you bring out the setup too late, then the opponent could arrange for a lebeau trigger with a large pile of dead in the cemetary instead of in a smaller one. The "bomb" should also be planned to take place all in the space of 1-2 rounds in reality, so the actual angel isn't on the table very long, so one turn of shade when the bomb opens and one turn using soul bind while the angel is in play before arranging for the angel to be removed. For example, angel hits the table and shade is opened reducing the SP to 0. The angel is hit twice setting off the bomb and closing most of the opposition and the 70 damage attack from noirweiden closes whatever is left. All but 2 units leave the field triggering SS. Now, if nothing was left on the field on the lawita side and damage was dealt, it could mess things up if a revival SS were set in place, otherwise the unit on the table would absorb some of the chaff left in the wake of the retaliation strike. If this doesn't happen, then shade can be used as a fake tank for noirweiden, so that it will be closed when she takes a hit and be revived thus completing the chain for counter attack in the following turn closing the opposition board while you prepare to setup for the late game.

It is not about making them not be able to resurect 3 times, it is about forcing them to choose which 1-2 units are being resurected and keeping their overal force size small and as a consequence spend LP.

As for deck construction on a fully fleshed out deck, each would have some common things useful, like shade, but the unit composition and order of play would be different, since the actual time spent stalling for the angel would change. This is another issue i was having when thinking about when each trigger would take place vs a one size fits all sitautions. For example, a deck that opened with kurina SS and closed noirweiden with counterattack, would likely have more level 3s in the deck in preperation for the late game, or a long early game stalling. A deck that removed noirweiden with phoenix on the last SS would likely have more tanks and try to stall initally to build a force before bringing it out. Use the shock value of the bomb to close the field and mop up with crest knight and zombie lord in addition to potentially setting up noirweiden as an archer supported by other units depending on which LP count you were in.

[Candi]

Still, I think it's too gimmicky to be largely successful. You need them to have a handful of units out there for it to be useful, but we can't wait too long. Once they drop a level 4 it's over. And what about Refess. 30 Damage board wide damage won't kill most of their units. If they have a Blessed Acolyte and Ancient Spear Knight you won't kill either with the bomb and your angel will get one - the other gets free shots! Igniting your bomb on one unit.

Strange, it seems your built a deck Refess can frequently come out on top of. How against current meta

[Romdeau]

I'm not sure if this is true or not, but there is a rumor that Flesh Recycling self-reviving units means permanently closing the because they keep the effects placed upon them before its life ended. I've seen a Zombie Lord with 10 DF placed on it by a Dryad and every time I killed that thing, the 10 DF didn't go away; I'm assuming it's true then.

So hypothetically, I could one shot win a game if I cast Recycle flesh on this angel. I imagine that'd be an interesting game to witness

[EvilGenius]

I'm not sure if this is true or not, but there is a rumor that Flesh Recycling self-reviving units means permanently closing the because they keep the effects placed upon them before its life ended. I've seen a Zombie Lord with 10 DF placed on it by a Dryad and every time I killed that thing, the 10 DF didn't go away; I'm assuming it's true then.

So hypothetically, I could one shot win a game if I cast Recycle flesh on this angel. I imagine that'd be an interesting game to witness

It's already been proven that a Flesh Recycle causes a unit with that ability to trigger once before closing. So in this example, you would only lose 1 LP, not all of it. And that unit will lose any effects it had, like the Dryad effect, because it was closed, not simply its ability restoring its HP.