The Renaissance of Big Blue

Strategies and Card File Construction

Re: The Renaissance of Big Blue

Postby iambad » Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:57 pm

There was someone who was high rp with a Big Blue file before you made this thread, I forget the name of the icer, I think he was from one of the Asian guilds, but I remember swearing up and down that big blue was a good deck for falcow back when people were being emo about falcow and how much it sucked. And for some reason no one else saw it except for me apparently, or at least that is what it felt like trying to talk about it in chat and in forums. It was a little different then yours, as it had more grims and less wyrvens but the concept was the same, it was all about field control and completely destroyed my big red deck as I never saw it before and had no idea what to do. So at least one more player uses this type of deck, but apparently I am the only one who has seen them.
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Re: The Renaissance of Big Blue

Postby Callonia » Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:24 pm

Curbstomping the opponent. Lulzy worthy to do at least once but meh if it happens again.

https://alteil-login.gamepotusa.com/aud ... 7cc9f6a6c9

And big falkow giving a variant of big defs its love and attention that defs variant richly deserves.

https://alteil-login.gamepotusa.com/aud ... 8e96f193c6

Feel better now gonfreeces? :P

Big falkow is nice and all but not my thing lol

I've fought and beaten an big refess with big falkow as well.
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Re: The Renaissance of Big Blue

Postby Icyglare » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:08 pm

I'm not too sure if that will make Gon happy, what do the rest of you guys think?
For a large amount of various Alteil Replays, try youtube link

<-- http://www.youtube.com/AlteilReplays -->

CEM guild brah!
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Re: The Renaissance of Big Blue

Postby GonFreeces31 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:09 pm

I was just wondering if anyone else had attempted it is all.
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Re: The Renaissance of Big Blue

Postby Callonia » Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:02 pm

GonFreeces31 wrote:I was just wondering if anyone else had attempted it is all.


Well, I have for sure lol.

People don't like files that's challenging. They prefer their easy wins honestly.

Big Falkow have pretty hard time against big refess if u don't use enough return shenanigans.

I have no clue on how well they can fare against big gowen cuz big gowen is all about attacking you in open phases with start phases. I'd guess big falkow's at an disadvantage against big gowen unless they get a bunch water spouts off on allind probably. Heck i think that probably won't be enough xD Disjunction that bringer!
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Re: The Renaissance of Big Blue

Postby Anima13 » Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:28 am

I can imagine that the simply lack of presence put big blue in a bad position. You also need plenty of high rarity cards which do not found their way in to other decks (maybe cause there is also no real mid blue existing beside the few ppl with mildoreo). And the strengh of other big decks is simply too obvious while blue is tricky and difficult.
Big refess should be able to deal with our returns just with some cait sith ss and peace negotiation. Big gowen should just bomb down everything.
And everything is owned with some well placed merciless deaths, bitter destinies or death makers. These grims make the lawtia sphere absolutley dominating even agains good concurring decks.

This means the only chance big blue has is excluding your enemy will have enough Sp to do any of those tricks. Or creating a field your enemy cannot set a foot on. Or grim removal. Preferably all three of them.
It certanly wont be a walk in the park.
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Re: The Renaissance of Big Blue

Postby Anima13 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:41 am

I am experimenting now for a bit with big blue in every tourney we have. I tried not to have the exact build of yours but still using a simmilar approach.

some generell stuff:
I was trying to make something like a big blue control style but i had to realize this is currently not possible/irrealistic in most cases (which is a let down considering low lvl falkow decks are able to do that but not big). I know galdi supposed to help me in this but he is really just too situational for that. At that point I realised that your deck is mainly aggro style with control options. I am still asking myself if there would be a way to make a good big control deck but it takes a bit more then just some tourney to learn this type of file and I am already glad if I can make it work a bit.


My issues: while I was playing variants and was experimenting with big blue I had to several issues I would like to adress here:

-It was somewhat a surprise for me how squishy most of these cards are. (especially legyre surprised me, his nerf is understandable but the same time creates a lot issues)
Most of the bigs relies on auto skills to work. Their slowness is an issue and they are super vulnerable to engages and speed manipulation. The slyph next turn on legyre is absolute obvious and the lvl 2 rushes mostly posses ways to deal with a slyphed legyre (no, I am not talking about removals....), and those which don't are fail designed (I think I can excude card availability as issue in these tournaments).

PS: I think I don't have to explain what happens to this deck if legyre can't use its auto skill against a lvl2 rush

- the early game is absolute challenging and decisional to the whole game. On one side I have to build up fast enough sp so I can put out the initial anti field to my opponents deck, on the other side I can't let my field empty else my opponent start to izer like crazy and I lost. But if I field something to protect my lp I postpone my antifield and that can make me loose the game too. This is especially the case with vonderam where I like to have a tank support him before I field it, but also if the wyvern gamble game goes wrong.

- the lots of floating sp are screaming for sp drain. I was lucky I didnt met that till now but I dont know how I would conter that.

-I feel there is a need for some cards that creates a bridge between leviathan and the other cards in the deck. If I happen to field levi against a deck that has a normal agi distribution, while I destroy the initial field and can play with undine a bit, my opponent has the option to get rid of the spirit, eventually debuffing my levi(not necessary but useful) and build up a field of his high agi units, while not hurting levi. In this case levi would completly block your deck because there is nothing high agi (and high threat) there you could field. (I was experimenting with Mirelia and galdi chaos form due to that, galdis chaos form's debuff is really nice for levi)

-I just feel myself not that well when I see how much this deck relies on bogs power. he is absolutly great unit but fielding him is like ending the game for me as i wont be able to do anything then.

positives:
-DUB is a great SS
-I am amazed every time when I see how single copies of wyverns can dominate a field. its absolute hilarious
-durendal is a great card he could find his place in mid decks too
-playing big blue is challenging-> its fun :D

current techs/modifications i am thinking about/playing with.

-I was experimenting with multisphere support for big blue, but It was a bit too early :D

-absolute wall, shear winds, and total failure are grims I am currently experimenting with to balance my bigs squishiness + more grims are helping vonderam too

-I am playing around with adding a second damage dealer in the file. I tried mileria because I like the card and it fits a bit with vonderam(and higher agi). She is fun to use but is really not the card that saves the day in the deck (but she is annoying even with such a bad support). maybe mildoreo? he would certanly solve some issues this deck has with rushes. On the other side it just shows again how big blue relies in a competetive environment more on the damage aspect then the control aspect. Which again is a bit disappointing for me.
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Re: The Renaissance of Big Blue

Postby Gota » Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:48 pm

Anima13 wrote:- the early game is absolute challenging and decisional to the whole game. On one side I have to build up fast enough sp so I can put out the initial anti field to my opponents deck, on the other side I can't let my field empty else my opponent start to izer like crazy and I lost. But if I field something to protect my lp I postpone my antifield and that can make me loose the game too.


This problem happens to every big decks, that's why there is usually a mid or low lv unit that drops during that time to help in some way. Of course that is situational, and sometimes you won't/don't need to field said unit, but that's why they are usually only single copies in a big deck.

This is usually referred to as sp banking, they are temporary placeholders for sp so you don't get sp drained by wrath/Zu/succubus/etc. (Really, you can sp bank with any unit, but this post is telling you WHY some units do this better than others)

Unfortunately there isn't a low lv unit in Falkow that is like EX Merc Girl or EX Ellie, so tough luck and we'll move on to mid lv units.

For example, Night Wing Wyvern, Living Armor and in big lawtia, Sakura in big red. (Not familiar with Big Refess, so I'm leaving it out)

Those work because
1) They already did their job on their Open skill or Close skill for Living Armor, point is, the skill is almost guaranteed.
2) They leave a body on the field to protect your LP
3) Yes, they might lock your sp temporarily, but they'll die soon and give that sp back, you will lose 1LP, but you were going to lose it anyway if they Iczer.
4) If your opponent don't want to give you that sp back and doesn't attack those units, then that's groovy too because now you won't lose any LP at all.

For Falkow, I think the one that fits this bill would be Faytis or Lightning Wyvern. Strike Wyvern kinda works, but I'd prefer Lightning over Strike. (Roc fits this as well, but lets forget him, he sucks)

There are also SP banks that deals with sp genas well
They are Ancient Zombie lord and for lawtia and Giant Anaconda for Gowen.

But they are kinda of outdated now because Night wing and Sakura is usually preferred, simply because hindering your opponent is generally much better than boosting yourself in most cases. But nonetheless, these 2 units are still there if the need arises. However I can't think of one that fits this bill exactly for Falkow atm, the only one I can think of is Catherina, but she only fits slightly because shes an opening unit, not a turn 4-5 unit.

If you don't want such a passive approach and want to give more pressure in the early game, you could use some strikers too (Usually single copy, but not necessarily).
Such as Phimilliar for Lawtia, Volcano Wyvern(He kinda fits), sometimes Bringer(yes, bringer) for gowen.

I think For Falkow, it might be Mikasha. Lightning Wyvern overlaps here as well.
I wouldn't worry about the self grim bane on Mikasha much because well, if she gets her turn, you're most likely going to kill 2 units. If she didn't get her turn, well hopefully she tanked at least 2 hits with her 50hp and 10df, and that possibly means you saved 1lp, plus she didn't grim bane you.


The point is, the unit you drop needs to either be fast/study (so it can go before your opponent's field of 2-4 units, or live till its turn) or it has to have a worthwhile open/start/close skill (which are usually guaranteed to activate). Because said unit is going to be a sacrificial unit, it is just a stepping stone, it WILL die so it must do its job before dying or while dying.

Also, obviously you'll need to pad your LP to anticipate the Lp losses, but I don't want to make this post any longer, the idea is 2LP SS with good effects that would always work even when iczered. (Dub Rido over Mizett, consistency over chance)
Verlaat, Dub Rido, Lria just to name a few.
And a couple of 3LPs of your choice, of course pick something 'not as bad' for these. Death Dragon / Zangadylan gets a mention here, hes a gamble, but could win you games and (imo)rarely make you lose games. Again, up to you.

Hope this helps
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Re: The Renaissance of Big Blue

Postby GonFreeces31 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:20 pm

Makes me happy you got to try it out for yourself! I really enjoy the file it's just horrible inconsistent. You can beat some top metas... And then lose to some noob who spams gowen 2's and follows with primrose. I know it works pretty solid in Folrart, I've been afraid to play it in tourney's like this cause the files and stuff you play are just so crazy. Like BB would probably have no chance verse GMB for example.


Aggro vs Control
- Aggro has the philosophy: I will destroy everything you throw out there. Go for card disantage to wear opponent's resources thin.
- Control has the philosophy: I am playing for SP and field control. You do not have to destroy the opponent's entire file, you just have to land your attacks in the right spots and lock down the field. Go for card and LP disadvantage in order to establish dominant position on field.

The file I use is basically a control version. It relies heavily on Vonderam/Legyre/Levi to generate SP advantage and help get advantageous situation on field.

About slowness: Yeh Vonderam/Legyre are uber slow so thats why you got them spirits in there. They're really hard to time right and get to work well. Another technique I use a lot is the late game Turtle/Sea Horse combo. Can win games.

About Iczering: Don't worry so much about this. For example I had a game where the opponent did nothing but aggressively iczer attack early with only a few units. The dubs hit sacrificial units and he lost 2-3 SS from little things dying. Then he had me down to 3LP. I just dropped down the turtle and then Vonderam and he only had 2 units out and from there it's super easy to lock down the field. So them dumbing a ton of SP into iczering isn't the end of the world if you can get your Vonderam out and lock down their field.

About levi: just don't force him. He's great now and then but a lot of matches useless. A lot of times I use the Levi -> regus -> undine -> sea wyvern -> STRIKE WYVERN approach. Make sure to be careful with levi. It is usually always wise to rest him instead of attack. Don't worry about him dying. If you play him right he will have gotten you a very nice SP advantage that you can just pocket and then overwhelm the opponent later on. I often have situations late where I literally have like 15SP and just spam lvl 6+ units like its my job.

About endgame: Bog/Durendal is incredibly strong. Yep. Here is a nice way I like to think of Falkow file design: "Force the opponent through their SS. Then drop Bog/Sorc Monk." So you basically have 5 cards for the finale. Then you got the other 20 cards to get through the SS and cause havoc.

About techs: I actually think thunder drops would be a super great addition. Use it after all those shade -> 3 -> shade opens. Kill two shades cause 2 SS to backfire. I think shear winds could work. Not total failure or the walls though.

Turning it more aggro: Mildoreo/Rasam/Blade Wyvern and get rid of all the returning cards. Aggro philosophy is to destroy everything that hits the field, so you can use high cost stuff that give card advantage like these guys do.

About Mir/Alna: You could make another variant more focused on grims, and Mir/Alna & Vonderam/Legyre. Sure why not. I used to do this actually months ago.

About multi-sphere: Really dislike.
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Re: The Renaissance of Big Blue

Postby Callonia » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:39 pm

My approach with big blue is quite different.. Return something then start filling up the field and make the enemy mad cuz he facing many bigs with his lone lvl 3.

If he still can stay on field, just keep on summoning something big and smack him hard. It usually works for me. Or engage everything and hurt everyone.
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