Challenging the Meta

Strategies and Card File Construction

Re: Challenging the Meta

Postby Xovian » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:24 pm

teasel wrote:uh soul keeper set everyone to 3 SP that means that if your opponent had say 20 SP they just lost 17 SP...
and really i was just talking about SP draining SS but if you want to put it that way the soul bind+invisible druid (in fact i would say it's better since the only way you could counter it would be to engage another creature and then hope the effect lands on the other one... and you don't lose a creature unlike assasin...) would do the same... heck! rapidly flying apprentice SS specifically says "return target creature which is level 5 or higher" that will easily hurt as much if not more than assasin yet nobody ever complained about it... why that's not broken? because nobody plays it? beside i might tell something that might probably shocks you... if SP loss hurt you so much,why you don't just add more SP generating stuff? i know that the tought of someone running archer scout/kesaran/sage owl it's shocking (i meant nobody plays them so...) alternatively you could pull off some medium sized creature as a safelock... if you looked around you would think there is some rule that said your deck has to have only level 5> creature or only level3< creature...


You are correct in that it sets the sp to 3, however i still stand by the fact that it does not kill a creature to do so.
So that point still stands. Also having 5 SP (cause the effect effects the beginning of a turn, thus it can be used right away or used the following turn which makes it the 5sp) is also not all that detrimental, in fact it helps most files. And besides that, just how often have you seen people with 20sp? 9-10 might be seen, but beyond that I'd be surprised if you've ever seen that in Folrart.

Invisible Druid takes two specific card combination and a death of a creature, and the bind has to be played at a specific time. You can not haphazardly accomplish this combo (note the word combo). It also costs 2sp directly to accomplish this task. Assassin does this with less effort, and does not require additional sp or turn loss (you lose the ability to play another card on the turn the bind is used) for the combination. So not even in the same league.

Returned creatures can be replayed as they are sent to your card file and not the cemetery.
It's also worth noting all of them (SS) have LEVEL requirements. They do not work on EVERYTHING.
Thats why they aren't over powered. Though im sure there could be arguments for/against that.
The only non-return effect that does not have a level requirement is Mystera, but she can not use her ability unless you have both the SP and one of two abilities at your disposal (agi additive or subtractive), again for this it requires a combination.

Again, Assassin is better then every combination you have tried to use as an argument, and most are for obvious reasons.

As i said, my file had (3 of a given card) of each lvl, 2, 3, 4, 5, and even 6. Also had one lvl 9.
So not sure what you are referring to here.

Care to try and throw out some more cards for me to shoot down?

I'll make it easy for you.
Accomplish this task if you can:
-Name a card that causes both SP loss and creature removal.
-It can not be a "combo" effect.
-It can not be a return effect, nor an ability that allows the creature to be revived.
-It must be a low rarity card (3 star and below) and an SS effect, as SS is not sphere dependent.

If you can find me a card that does all those things besides Assassin / Salamander Soldier, I'd really like to hear it.
Bottom line, I don't think you can cause it doesn't exist.

The irony of this is i think a few people forget about all the complaints the old 40dmg on two random target rare(s) SS people use to use.
Last edited by Xovian on Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Challenging the Meta

Postby Xovian » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:36 pm

logress wrote:Don't forget there are ways to directly counter an assassin. When the Japanese built us sample dragon decks at the beginning of Set 2, all of them had one or two copies of an Assassin counter, and I've never seen that in a US deck. For example, to protect Allind, run a few copies of Petrification. If he's about to set of a soul skill, use it on the big guy. Sure he can't attack for one round, but he's got 30 DF, so he's probably not going to die, either. And, Assassin is bunked, because it doesn't work on engaged units. For Legyre, use Shear Winds. No one gets to do anything, so it's no loss and assassin is again bunked. Lawtia have the worst option with Soul Bind, because it doesn't protect the Dragon, only engages it. Lucky for Lawtia, even when the Jyu-zyva (girl now) dies, he still does his job. Of course, these options are there primarily to prevent catastrophic SP loss, they still require you to have other units on the field to fight while the dragon is paralyzed. Which means that you still need to build a field with units of different levels, and you can't just throw out your biggest card and dominate automatically. However, if you can get a dragon out and protect it, it can still overwhelm a game.


Show me a file that does what you describe through testing that actually works Logress.
I'm calling the BS flag here and throwing that on the field for ya.

Because SP generation, while much faster then set1, is still not at such a rate where that is feasible outside of very late game (generally due to massive losses already) your theory has too many holes in it, and in rarely works, and doesnt work against experienced players. It was tried in set 1, it has been tried in set 2 as well, the theory of bring out the big ones late game generally doesn't work, because they are often one of the only (if not the only) things on the board. I can't even count how many times i tested that theory. It never worked for me! Now I admit, i may not be the best player, but when the experienced people those files were play tested with can't figure out ways to shore up such a file, I don't think its because "we just havnt figured it out yet". We got a lot of both experienced and smart players here.

Also your comment about adding those grimories: that just forces more people to also carry the counter (the counter to the counter?) cards so they can force backlash, which just helps to restrict files ability to be different from each other even more. People have already been adding them for the sole reason to backlash, its being done now, and likely will keep doing as such.

Not that it really matters at all since I havnt been playing for awhile, but it doesnt mean i wont comment on what i saw.
Suppose you can atribute part of this as "slow day at work syndrome".

But since im bored:

File: Mass Extinction (Final version 26win 1loss on file record, crest streak breaker of old 13, to 28 streak in Folrart)

-Soul Skill (in order from last to first/left to right on battle screen):
Guard Leader / Renally, Guard Leader / Renally, Time Reader / Lavende, Magic Doll -Support-, Magic Doll -Support-

-Library: Creatures:
3x Dark Emperor / Zu-jyuva
3x Chaos Ogre / Dalos
3x Broken Iron Soldier / XXXX (set2 version)
3x Skeleton Warrior
3x Abyss Centaur / Dical
3x Assassin

-Library Grimoire:
1x Merciless Death
1x Soul Bind
2x Corruption
3x Soul Pact

*Note: All but Emperor are agi 4+. All but Assassin are characters. Field placement knowledge required to ensure revival of units (not referring to front row or back row, but number placement).
Last edited by Xovian on Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Challenging the Meta

Postby Gota » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:11 pm

Well, no one is forced to do anything.

People resorted to assassin SS because high level monsters were popular, and its an effective + (cheap $) way to deal with it. Sure you can multi attack a dragon emperor to kill it, but when they come with effects that mass board wipes, its not a very effective way.

And to counter said assassin SS might require you to alter your deck, to deal with the situation, just like how they packed assassin SS to deal with high level emperors, its the same reason for change in any card game, to cope with what is popular and strong.

One can say that both sides are being forced, or both sides are coping to the situation, either way, both sides are being influenced the same way.

There will be powerful cards in any game, that is the truth, but quitting over it just seems like a big waste to me for someone like you who had spent so much on it, but that is your decision, I can't really help it, but I'm just trying to spark up some discussion, so others might not follow the same path, since I think its silly.

I do understand where you are coming from though, seeing the same type of decks isn't what I want to see either, but that is why I think we should look for more viable strategies to go about it, and add variety to the public, rather than just let it be.

Then again, maybe the root of the problem is about the gaining of cards in this game. Because it is so hard to get cards, people HAVE to resort to (cheap $) assassin SS to solve many of the problems they face in this game. While they only have what they have, but you have every card, so you feel more like you are being forced, but they are feeling like they are just coping with their problems. Maybe that is where the frustration lies, i dunno... :/
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Re: Challenging the Meta

Postby teasel » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:20 pm

i don't see where is the problem in the fact that the card goes to the graveyard and not in your deck (nobody stops you to play a creature with only 2 copies not to mention there are card who retrieve stuff from the graveyard but again this would mean playing out of the rules therefore = bad) since you are saying the biggest problem with assasin is the SP loss which is caused in every case... and if i'm hitting a creature that i already killed twice... ehy i just made you a favor by preventing LP loss! nor do i see why the druid is weaker just because it requires you to play an extra card to make it work (you also makes it sounds like an impossible task when all you need to do is play a stoneize/soul bind when one of your guys die... can't be simpler than that) yes rapidly flying apprentice has a level requirement but if i'm using assasin to hit a level 3/4 then the deal i made wasn't any much worse than a shade (or even worse if you oneshot the level 1 guys on the other side) you just used a SS slot to accomplish the same thing of a level 1 card...
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Re: Challenging the Meta

Postby Phades » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:50 pm

ANIMEniac wrote:Multi Assassins work b/c many people are trying to play around Behemoths. I am fairly sure Multi Assassin Souls will fail against rush and lower lvl decks. It's just like how people began to use Water Dragon as anti-gowen, or how i used XXXX in my refress to kill off the Behemoths in the tourny. So someone smarts up and sets up their souls to kill off a certain deck.
Multiple assassins weakness is any file that fields for any style of overwhelming field control or rush style play. I have almost always used at least 2 assassin in every deck i have played from the time i owned those cards initially. This has commonly been the case especially when i also wasn't focusing on multiple sources of return style effects like wassier in slot 1 combined with others to "make up" the early game field position loss through assassin use. My personal uses for it initially for for work arounds to "problem units" and combos that i could not cope with easily in normal play. Those things included the Lebeau soul effect, the brave panther combo or SS gowen angel, or any unit that would prove to be inconvienent over time like mysterie or vordor.

Assassin, mystery, corruption, SP drain, and merciless death are the fail safes for these styles of cards, otherwise they are impossible to beat without running them yourself. Any adjustment to allowing the target variable to change would also mandate scaling LP loss for the user that gains SP in any of these instances. However, some cards like the gowen dragon emperor for example, would abuse this mechanic beyond belief and crush outright any deck that allowed him to be set multiple times. The problem with going this route is also that the "endgame" cards is that there is no upkeep for them over time and the introduction of SP ramps globally. I mean FFS, this is precicely why will o wisp was nerfed in the first place and then they go and re-invent the wheel? It is just pointless...

*IF* Those sp ramps didn't exist and the rest of the game stayed as it is, then people would be forced to play through the levels having diversity of units to build up to the end game if they wanted to do so. In this instance, Assassin would be a risky proposition unless one side was winning by a substantial margin from an early point in the game, but unfortunately this is a common occurance within the game due to the core mechanics of Alteil. *IF* people adjusted their tactics to match that style of play then through the sheer simple fact of what targets would be available in the early to mid game for assassin, it would not be nearly as much of an issue at all when it came to play their emperors unless the individual was likely to lose the game before playing it.
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Re: Challenging the Meta

Postby ANIMEniac » Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:58 pm

Using them endgame may work better than making it as your main force. I do not think i have seen many of that type of play. Most try to play the Behemoths as early as possible, but that just allows your opponent to use those SS on it. Endgame they have less answers, so it may be the best time to play one after you have build up the SP.
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Re: Challenging the Meta

Postby Xovian » Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:27 pm

ANIMEniac wrote:Using them endgame may work better than making it as your main force. I do not think i have seen many of that type of play. Most try to play the Behemoths as early as possible, but that just allows your opponent to use those SS on it. Endgame they have less answers, so it may be the best time to play one after you have build up the SP.


True, but I'll tell you why it is a good theory but doesn't work in practice and in an actual match most of the time.
Don't get me wrong, it does work sometimes, but it is far from consistent.

The problem is that late game use of "big creatures" are almost always a product of filed sweeps or effects that kill multiple creatures.
Thus even with SP generating cards, they often come out "too little too late". Yes they hit the board, but they rarely hit the board with much help, and the current game mechanics dont really allow much way out of this. It's easier to do then it was in set 1, don't get me wrong, but due to the fact that games often end up as "revive fests" for one player or another, the outcome is usually unfavorable. It works really well when a person already has field advantage and is "already winning", but it does not operate on the level of play that it can alter the flow of a game to a large degree. If you already winning it seals the deal, if you are behind and trying to come back, it rarely works due to the cost.

An example of late game type "big creature effects" were Zombie Lord files that ran lebeau in set 1. Occasionally i still saw that combination being run even well after set 2's initial release. Some might not even consider him a really big creature (for set 1 it was obviously), but how many people entered the highest tiers of play with that combination? None that i know of. Even with the emperors and their effects, its pretty much the same play style. While it can be fun, and can even win, it isn't consistent in a competitive environment. It was the original way i had set up the one file im well known for. With that set up, it lost far more then it won. Reverse it, to where it does it differently, big first, not last, and the results were unexpectedly far better. I tested several files types that ran this type of strat (big last), 1 for every sphere, if not several and most of them suffered similar type of win/loss.

Is it possible that maybe just "I" couldn't make it work?
Sure, anythings possible.
But given the number of players out there with competitive files, shouldn't at least someone be well ranked if the file strat actually worked by now?

Food for thought.
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Re: Challenging the Meta

Postby ManiacalSoul » Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:56 pm

In an even game, you can build up to the gowen emp, because his field clearing skill is an open skill rather than the close or auto skills of the other emps, so he can wipe the board b4 he actually hits it. I played a level 4-7 gowen deck that used the emp as a final nuke at the end of the game reasonably successfully for a time.
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Re: Challenging the Meta

Postby Phades » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:00 pm

Xovian wrote:The problem is that late game use of "big creatures" are almost always a product of filed sweeps or effects that kill multiple creatures. Thus even with SP generating cards, they often come out "too little too late". Yes they hit the board, but they rarely hit the board with much help, and the current game mechanics dont really allow much way out of this. It's easier to do then it was in set 1, don't get me wrong, but due to the fact that games often end up as "revive fests" for one player or another, the outcome is usually unfavorable. It works really well when a person already has field advantage and is "already winning", but it does not operate on the level of play that it can alter the flow of a game to a large degree. If you already winning it seals the deal, if you are behind and trying to come back, it rarely works due to the cost.
This is an underlying failure within the game. Once field position is established and counters are set in place, it is nearly impossible to come back. This doesn't have much to do with the issue of Assassin or large vs. small creatures, but more along the lines of there are too few strategies that are valid and they all work in a landslide style momentum. For example, even in something simple like dragon rider wassier in SS slot 1, if it hits a blitz soldier that one turn swing can cost the other player the game. Many players will not even realize that the match is already lost at that point.

Xovian wrote:Is it possible that maybe just "I" couldn't make it work?
Sure, anythings possible.
But given the number of players out there with competitive files, shouldn't at least someone be well ranked if the file strat actually worked by now?
I think that in the lawita file specifically, unless the majority of the deck is devoted to the night combos, it can lose out early in the small game against the more common gowen theme and occasionally to falkow depending on opening moves. I mean hell, many games can be lost on just the opening alone, never mind subsequent moves. I think that this is what you were running into more than anything else when using a small->big strategy.

The small->big strategy is the "classic" refress strategy from set 1, since refress simply couldn't get bye with its level 1s and 2s. So then what you had were a couple level 3s that would get cemetaried and ramp into a level 4-6 card depending on the situation to replace it with. The problem was that those cards couldn't stand up on their own and single units were easily targeted and killed off. There is more depth now, but the file would have to basically plan for that style of loss->gain and reset sitaution without giving up ground in the process.
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Re: Challenging the Meta

Postby Xovian » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:30 pm

Phades wrote:This is an underlying failure within the game. Once field position is established and counters are set in place, it is nearly impossible to come back. This doesn't have much to do with the issue of Assassin or large vs. small creatures, but more along the lines of there are too few strategies that are valid and they all work in a landslide style momentum. For example, even in something simple like dragon rider wassier in SS slot 1, if it hits a blitz soldier that one turn swing can cost the other player the game. Many players will not even realize that the match is already lost at that point.


I concur.
I use the phrase "revive fest" but it's another point of what you describe.
Once things are set in motion, often with in the first 4 turns, the game can already be decided.

The build up type of theme is common in every TCG, some work to varying degrees.
In Ateil, it out right doesn't work because of this game mechanic.

As another example, I've played Lupos before and told him exactly when i lost the game, even when it was several turns before it actually finished. The mechanics of the game allow for the momentum of a match to hit a hump, and once that hump is finished, the game is already over, it just waits on the conclusion to come to fruition.
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