Balance Discrepancies

Strategies and Card File Construction

Re: Balance Discrepancies

Postby Allied » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:32 pm

You mean 2 lol, But thank you
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Re: Balance Discrepancies

Postby DanTheTimid » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:53 pm

Allied wrote:You mean 2 lol, But thank you


Actually I meant what I said, 1, if you have 1 version in your soul cards and 1 version in your card file that leaves only 1 card left to be added of that type due to the 3 card limit.

However I think you understood what I meant, I just worded it poorly.
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Re: Balance Discrepancies

Postby Allied » Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:50 pm

I did understand and thank you again haha
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Re: Balance Discrepancies

Postby Akjeil » Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:42 pm

Logress wrote:Hmm... "Falkow Level" is shorthand for "Level of Falkow Sphere of Influence" not the level of a Falkow card. I was thinking of writing it out to avoid confusion, but that would make the text for effects on cards that say "Falkow level x20" very long, and there are more and more of those as the game goes on.


Maybe the "Falkow Level" text on those cards could be hyperlinked to this post :lol:
Though seriously, I don't know how something like that might affect in-game traffic on the server. Anyway, I guess Awod's suggestion makes more practical sense.

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Re: Balance Discrepancies

Postby Grain » Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:42 am

DanTheTimid wrote:Ok I just got confirmation fron DWildStar that soul cards are indeed unaffected by the character backlash rule, so my complaint about Witch Queen / Catherine remains valid.

Keep in mind that when you play a card as a soul card everything else on the card but the LP and the soul skill is ignored, so in order to balance soul skills you need to ignore the rest of the card and balance the LP and soul skill separately. This would not be the case if soul cards were chosen randomly from your card file, but you get to choose exactly which cards to use as soul cards before hand so their other stats never come into play.

Or atleast that's my understanding.


I disagree. The rest of a card's skills determine whether you'd like to use it as a soul card (pretty much out of play the whole game until it gets flipped over once) or use the card to manipulate the field of battle.

[card=4]Lion Baron/Zagar[/card] has a great soul skill. +20 ATK could really help me take down my opnents enemies. But wait! If I play him on the field he'll turn into a damage machine all his own. He even has defense! Which should I use him for?

I look at my cards' soul skills in balance with the rest of his stats & skills. Zagar will be able to do much damage based on his auto abilities, but, he doesn't have much HP. Does this make him truly useful on the field, or should I stick him to the side for that +20 ATK? Could I use a healing card to aid him? If so, how much SP would I be using per turn? Perhaps I have another soul card to keep him alive longer, but this card offers less LP?

You should never ignore any aspect of a card when focusing on balance.
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Re: Balance Discrepancies

Postby DanTheTimid » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:29 am

I'm sorry but I believe that logic is inherently flawed. It certainly is true that when choosing which cards to use as soul cards, whether or not a card might be one you'd like to use as a unit will have an impact on your decision as to which soul cards you pick. This much I completely agree with.

This does not, however, create a situation where balance should be affected. Once a card has been designated as a soul card all of its unit stats are ignored. So even though it may have been a hard choice for me to pick how to use, lets say card A, because both as a unit and soul card it could be useful to me, whether or not the card is balanced will come done to each side individually.

Let's use this fictional card A as an example:

Its unit side is strong, but only in a certain deck that makes good use of its unique effect, and thus as a whole its unit side is well balanced. Conversely the soul card side is overly strong in every deck and thus as a whole its over powered. In this case the soul card side needs a little tweaking so that its either a little weaker, or more theme specific. The unit side however did not effect anything, nor needs anything done to it. Making the unit side stronger or weaker will not change the fact that the soul card side is too strong and thus will be used by every smart player who can get their hands on it. If you make the unit side stronger all you end up with is a card that's too strong on both sides and now still shows up in every deck only now it might be used as a soul card or a unit card. If you make the unit side weaker, no effect, everyone was using it as a soul card anyway and now they're still using it as a soul card.

Do you see what I'm trying to get at? If one side of the card is too strong or too weak, no matter what you do to the other side that weak/strong side is still just as weak/strong. The only way to balance the imbalanced side is to alter it directly.

Now if your lazy you can just make sure at least one side is balanced and ignore any side that's too weak, this is in my opinion not a very admirable way of going about things but it will at least still result in every card having some usefulness. HOWEVER what you can not do is ignore sides that are too strong, if a side is too strong, regardless of what you do to the other side, that side will remain too strong and we'll end up with a card everyone runs in their deck. Card files will start looking alot more similar and the game will become alot more predictable and boring.

That is why I feel its important that a balancer does not allow a weak side of the card justify having an overly strong side. The 2 sides may not be completely independent when your deciding how to make your deck, but for balance related matters they most certainly are independent of one another.
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Re: Balance Discrepancies

Postby lupos » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:25 pm

Ok, so lemme make sure i understand

Card A = good unit but bad soul and common
Card B = bad unit but good soul and common
Card C = good unit and good soul and rare

Dan = unhappy?

Card A = good unit good soul, common
Card B = great unit great soul, rare
Card C = AWESOME unit AWESOME soul, really rare

Dan = happy?
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Re: Balance Discrepancies

Postby DWildstar » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:56 pm

I think it's:

Card A = Good Soul Skill LP 1 - Common
Card B - Same Good Soul Skill LP 2 - Rare

Dan = Unhappy

When Logress asked the Japanese about it they said that LP 2 doesn't mean better than LP 1 because of the strategy involved in timing when soul skills are activated.
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Re: Balance Discrepancies

Postby Akjeil » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:58 pm

lupos wrote:Ok, so lemme make sure i understand...
Card A = good unit good soul, common
Card B = great unit great soul, rare
Card C = AWESOME unit AWESOME soul, really rare

Dan = happy?

Close, but...
DanTheTimid wrote:...its always been my stance that rarity should have no baring on the balance of cards. If you make rare cards stronger then common cards the game not only favors rich people, but it also becomes alot less interesting because everyones using the exact same cards...
To me, to make rarity meaningful its best to simply make the cards have really powerful but hard/expensive to use theme specific effects...
(from "Ruby Carbuncle vs. Solar Prince" Thread)

So, Card C = AWESOME unit AWESOME soul, really rare + hard/ expensive to use theme-specific fx?

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Re: Balance Discrepancies

Postby DanTheTimid » Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:18 pm

No I'm afraid those examples make Dan Angry, Dan Smash! (for the record I haven't seen any of the hulk movies but I couldn't resist the reference)

An example that I would like would be:

Card A = generically good but not great in any deck OR great in a specific theme but not so great else where - common
Card B = See A - rare
Card C = Potentially great effect but at heavy costs in any deck, or potentially AWESOME effect but at heavy cost and only actually AWESOME in a specific theme - extra rare

In my ideal balance system the above can be said for the card when used as either a soul card or a unit card, HOWEVER I can live with things and still be happy (just not AS happy) if the above is true for atleast 1 side of the card and the other side is weaker.

Now of course this also only holds true if we assume that every theme has a weakness, that is the trade off for themed cards being stronger, that because your limiting yourself to that theme your also gaining the weaknesses of that theme.

For example lets make up a theme, angels. In this themed deck all the angels recover HP whenever another angel attacks. This is a powerful trait of angels that might make them appear stronger then the average unit because other then that trait most angels are comparable to the average themeless unit in every way. HOWEVER when looking further you notice that Angel's ranged unit are actually quite a bit weaker then the average Refess ranged unit. Sure you can substitute in generic refess ranged units but then your close range units don't benifit from their angel trait as much. You can just stick with pure angels but then your going to have to build your deck to compensate for your weak ranged abilities.

This is an example where every card was useful but every card still had weaknesses. The generic ranged units didn't have the angel trait but they could still be useful because of their superior stats. The front line angel units APPEAR to be overly strong, but they are in fact balanced out by the fact that in order to take advantage of their trait and really make them strong your going to have to use weaker ranged units.

In my ideal balance we could look at all these cards and find similar situations if they're played as soul cards. Maybe they have effects that do cool things that are better then generic soul cards if you have alot of angels on your field, but in order to have alot of angels on your field you're leaving yourself with weak range so again the seemingly powerful effect has been indirectly balanced and while it will still be useful in pure angel decks, it won't show up in every deck. You might also have effects that aren't quite as powerful for the average deck, but are specially useful to a deck with poor ranged units. In this case what normally would be a weak soul card has been made a useful one due to there being a theme that can really make use of it.

And about the rarity issue, again the thing about high rarity is they need to be cool enough effects to be desirable, but still have enough weaknesses going against them that there not auto includes in every deck. Often you've got to build your deck around them to really get the most out of them and just like with themes that means your going to have to use cards that aren't quite as generically strong but in this instance, because they help pull off the really powerful effect of your really rare card, they become useful. So the high rarity card's power was balanced by the fact you had to go through alot of work to play it while people who don't own said rare card can invest their work into making better use of their lower rarity cards. Both the decks with and with out the high rarity cards can thus compete with each other, but the high rarity cards if they work tend to have more flash that makes the win a little more satisfying.

Those examples aren't necessarily the only things that would make me happy but they are examples of things that would.

So yeah, Akjeil pretty much summed up my stance in alot less words. For the record DWildstar, its true I'm not especially happy with lp1 and lp2 cards have the same effect, but as I said before, until I've got more experience with the game I'm not going to make any assumptions about the balance of such things. I'm skeptical but I'm willing to bow before the Japanese players superior experience with the game and trust for now that such a thing is indeed balanced. What DOES make me unhappy is that we have lp2 cards with good skills and lp2 cards with no skills, and theres NO way what soever that THAT is balanced.
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