Grinding in RPG's is a thing of the past!

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Grinding in RPG's is a thing of the past!

Postby LegendsEnd » Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:14 pm

http://kotaku.com/5040313/why-grind-when-theres-tales-of-vesperia-dlc

Looks like there will be a lot of grinding for some lol.
Or we could buy our levels and enjoy the 'game' :?
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Re: Grinding in RPG's is a thing of the past!

Postby GunCastor » Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:39 pm

I don't really get why anyone would want to buy level ups when the game itself should provide enough EXP and money for whatever bosses lie ahead. Go back and fight more for more EXP and gald if you want but it's really not worth any real money as its not exclusive content. I suppose if someone was really short on time, they could do this but why play a game when so short on time...?
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Re: Grinding in RPG's is a thing of the past!

Postby DanTheTimid » Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:10 am

People have been paying money to cheat for years, from Game Genie to action replay, people continue to look for ways to "not play" their games. Not to say all people who use cheat devices do so for skipping gameplay, some like goofing around or unearthing unused/deleted content, but thats exactly what many other people got those devices for.

I've always felt that if a game would make you want to pay money to avoid playing it, the game is flawed and you should just find another game to play. There are way too many games out there that will keep you enjoying yourself from beginning to end to waste time playing games you don't enjoy. For instance, I highly recommend portals to anyone, it may not have rpg like longevity but I enjoyed every minute of the experience from beginning to end. And if your goal is not fun but infact longevity... why the heck are you cheating to reduce the games longevity in the first place?
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Re: Grinding in RPG's is a thing of the past!

Postby LegendsEnd » Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:43 am

I entirely agree with you guys, paying to shorten the amount of time a game lasts is odd. I think it's one of the negative effects of Microsoft's DLC model.

And nice avatar there GunCastor :P Lookin forward to P4!
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Re: Grinding in RPG's is a thing of the past!

Postby Phades » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:01 pm

DanTheTimid wrote:People have been paying money to cheat for years, from Game Genie to action replay, people continue to look for ways to "not play" their games. Not to say all people who use cheat devices do so for skipping gameplay, some like goofing around or unearthing unused/deleted content, but thats exactly what many other people got those devices for.

I've always felt that if a game would make you want to pay money to avoid playing it, the game is flawed and you should just find another game to play. There are way too many games out there that will keep you enjoying yourself from beginning to end to waste time playing games you don't enjoy. For instance, I highly recommend portals to anyone, it may not have rpg like longevity but I enjoyed every minute of the experience from beginning to end. And if your goal is not fun but infact longevity... why the heck are you cheating to reduce the games longevity in the first place?

+1

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Re: Grinding in RPG's is a thing of the past!

Postby Osterzone » Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:19 pm

I know that whenever I play an RPG, I flip if someone as much as buys a potion for me. The game suddenly becomes tainted! Haha. I dislike all forms of Game Genies or Game Sharks, but I outright abhor people cheating in MMOs because then you're making the game a worse place for the rest of us.

That being said, it is true; any game that makes you pay NOT to play it is flawed, and there should be something fun in every experience point earned. This is actually why I've become a big fan of Warhammer Online. The closest thing to grinding in that game is repeatedly joining the PvP arenas where I get an epic battle and massive XP for all my trouble.

Though it seems that Asian gamers still love to grind, and many of their MMOs and even console RPGs still keep that for them. Maybe that comes from watching all those episodes of Dragonball Z with Goku training forever.

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Re: Grinding in RPG's is a thing of the past!

Postby Phades » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:11 pm

Osterzone wrote:Though it seems that Asian gamers still love to grind, and many of their MMOs and even console RPGs still keep that for them. Maybe that comes from watching all those episodes of Dragonball Z with Goku training forever.

Grinding shouldn't feel like grinding. For example, in a FPS game you do the exact same actions and motions, in simply different combinations over and over on the same map. If this was applied to a MMORPG, it would be considered grinding. The reason why people play them is due to the fact that the actual act of doing those things repeatedly is so engaging that it becomes addictive due to the level of immersion and real time interaction that MMORPG games simply do not have.

The difference between the two really is that in an RPG you watch the character do something, while in FPS you are actually making it do things. The goal of any game should be to place as much control as possible into the players' hands in order to allow for that level of immersion to keep the game new and fresh for as long as possible.
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Re: Grinding in RPG's is a thing of the past!

Postby DanTheTimid » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:09 pm

Phades wrote:The goal of any game should be to place as much control as possible into the players' hands in order to allow for that level of immersion to keep the game new and fresh for as long as possible.


While I understand your point, I disagree. I'm not a big fan of FPS (though there are a few I love such as portals), to me their horribly repetitive and at times very frustrating. The goal of a good game to me is that it keeps the player entertained. How it goes about attempting to do that varies depending on the game genre. In my personal opinion (and maybe fans of grind games would beg to differ) good rpgs are extremely story and character development heavy. It doesn't even have to be a great story, it just has to keep me entertained. Thousand Arms is a great example of a game with a dumb story and incredibly weak battle system that I absolutely loved. Why? Because as dumb as the story might have been, it kept me amused from beginning to end (in large part due to the wacky characters). And as weak as the battle system might have been, the game didn't force obnoxious grinding, just as I was starting getting bored of battles I'd reach a new story area and get a new character on my team to change things up a bit.

To me the biggest flaw in most MMOs isn't the grinding, though it certainly does turn me off from them, but its their obsession with being totally immersive and realistic. Sure it feels more like I'm in a big world if I have to waste an hour running across the continent (or 30 minutes flying/riding with the games transportation system) to get to where I want to go... but for me the result is that I lost 30 minutes of time I wanted to spend having fun, being bored so that I could be better "immersed" in a game. To some maybe total immersion is entertaining, to me I play games to get escape from the boring things of life, not to live them in virtual form.

I suppose thats something I dislike about FPS too, at times you have too much control. One of my favorite "FPS" is the metroid prime series because its lock on system takes away some of the control (needing to have ridiculously good reflexes and touch sensitive steady hands to aim) that for me I only find frustrating in most rpgs (especially console ones). MP was critisized by many people for that fact, but to me it was brilliant, I don't want total control, I just want to control the fun parts. To me aiming is rarely fun in FPS games.

In the end to me its not control thats important, its that whatever your doing, your having fun doing it. Whether you have total control or your just occasionally choosing from a set of pre-chosen choices (Phoenix Wright anyone? Man I loved those games) a game can still be fun if made right.
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Re: Grinding in RPG's is a thing of the past!

Postby Phades » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:30 am

DanTheTimid wrote:
Phades wrote:The goal of any game should be to place as much control as possible into the players' hands in order to allow for that level of immersion to keep the game new and fresh for as long as possible.


While I understand your point, I disagree. I'm not a big fan of FPS (though there are a few I love such as portals), to me their horribly repetitive and at times very frustrating. The goal of a good game to me is that it keeps the player entertained. How it goes about attempting to do that varies depending on the game genre. In my personal opinion (and maybe fans of grind games would beg to differ) good rpgs are extremely story and character development heavy. It doesn't even have to be a great story, it just has to keep me entertained. Thousand Arms is a great example of a game with a dumb story and incredibly weak battle system that I absolutely loved. Why? Because as dumb as the story might have been, it kept me amused from beginning to end (in large part due to the wacky characters). And as weak as the battle system might have been, the game didn't force obnoxious grinding, just as I was starting getting bored of battles I'd reach a new story area and get a new character on my team to change things up a bit.
A more common trend within players and games is to skip the fluff almost entirely while playing, but it is still included for those who want to read it. There is a difference between a book and a game, that difference is the actual game system. Despite having a good plot, or enthralling setting, simply putting it into a different format like a visual interactive novel would be more appropriate if the game system is weak, buggy, or easily exploited.

DanTheTimid wrote:To me the biggest flaw in most MMOs isn't the grinding, though it certainly does turn me off from them, but its their obsession with being totally immersive and realistic. Sure it feels more like I'm in a big world if I have to waste an hour running across the continent (or 30 minutes flying/riding with the games transportation system) to get to where I want to go... but for me the result is that I lost 30 minutes of time I wanted to spend having fun, being bored so that I could be better "immersed" in a game. To some maybe total immersion is entertaining, to me I play games to get escape from the boring things of life, not to live them in virtual form.

I suppose thats something I dislike about FPS too, at times you have too much control. One of my favorite "FPS" is the metroid prime series because its lock on system takes away some of the control (needing to have ridiculously good reflexes and touch sensitive steady hands to aim) that for me I only find frustrating in most rpgs (especially console ones). MP was critisized by many people for that fact, but to me it was brilliant, I don't want total control, I just want to control the fun parts. To me aiming is rarely fun in FPS games.
Well you have identified why you dislike a genere entirely and should avoid them in the future in order to avoid frustration. Frustration to others is doing the exact same actions but getting two entirely different results due to a random number generator. Personally, i would rather watch a movie since i have the same level of control in a movie as i have had in some "weaker" games with better "plots". Better games i have played incorporate both equally.
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Re: Grinding in RPG's is a thing of the past!

Postby DanTheTimid » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:51 am

But see, certain frustrating elements such as aiming can be over looked if they aren't the focus of the game and other elements are unique and entertaining enough. Take Portals for instance, its first person, the controls consist of moving around and shooting a portal gun, I'd say Portal has to qualify as an FPS. However the focus of the game isn't on your ability to aim, but your ability to think outside the box and puzzle solve to get from one area to the next (with the eventual goal of getting cake). Along the way your kept entertained by constantly changing puzzles to solve and witty commentaries from GLaDoS. Conversely most FPS I play the focus is on aiming and killing the same thing (or a group of things) thousands of times. Your still moving from one area to the next, and sure along the way your performing other tasks like collecting ammo and weapons, but at the end of the day the real focus is on how well you can aim that cross hair and time the click of the fire button to transfer that ammo from your weapon to your latest target.

Anyway my point isn't that FPS aren't fun, cause while they may not be my favorite genre of game I know plenty of people who LOVE them, my point was just that total immersion isn't necessarily what the goal of every game should be. Some times for some players less can be better then more when it comes to how much control your given. To me the goal of game making is to most effectively walk that tight rope of total control and no control, giving players just enough control to keep them "involved" while never giving them so much that their forced to perform tasks that aren't fun.
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