Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Everything that doesn't go anywhere else.

Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby Chronomaster » Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:32 am

C'mon, Dan. +1 SP? How many times have you played Upstart Goblin for card draw?
That's basically what you're doing; Gaining back what you spent to give your opponent the advantage (in this case, knocking you 1 LP deader. Oh sure, you get 1 SP back but I can think of better units to get a refund off of, or completely better ways to generate SP if that's your aim).

Now, I'm not knocking the idea of tinkering with Wisp until it becomes more playable, I'm just knocking your one idea to force you to think better. Just my usual deal.

Hmm, how about something completely imbalanced and make it so that you gain +1 SP for each Refess unit in play when you play Wisp? +8 SP max, probably an average of +3 SP? Like?
BEATMANIUH
User avatar
Chronomaster
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:13 pm

Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby Candi » Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:57 am

Kitsune>

My Refess file makes use of the +10 HP coming from that Grimoire. The file rely's heavily on stalling with a Spiked Shield Knight and Holy Weapon Priestess while I put together the rest of my wall and support units (to be maximally effective I need about 5 units on the field - and it does happen sometimes, and when it does it's a downward spiral for my opponents). More often than not, because I have the Priestess in there, that +10 HP turns to a minor heal for everyone (since I have a lot of units damage is rather spread out) and +25 HP for my primary tank (which keeps him in top notch health). And the extra SP gives me the ability to keep dropping my level 3s *and* I find I have the SP to holy light when I need it- so in the right file the Ref Grim for SP generation is helpful.

That was off topic, back to wisp.

Chronomaster>

+1 SP is actually a halfway decent idea. It turns the wisp into a low level miniature zombie lord where you get the SP during a different phase. As a non-refess player that +1 SP is pointless unless you play several wisps, but as a Refess player your sphere investment doesn't count against the cost of a card (since for you its an investment that keeps paying you back every time you set something) so the wisp essentially becomes a +2 SP card (+1 on open and +1 on death), essentially making it similar to what Kitsune was desperately trying to imagine (a Ref central low level SP generator), without putting what would quickly become a huge screaming fit from everyone who doesn't play Refess.
Image
User avatar
Candi
 
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:14 pm

Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby Chronomaster » Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:12 am

Another avenue to watch is that the Great Spirits have a strong level of splashibility. Thus, if the +1 SP idea sucks for other spheres unless played en masse, or if my idea sucks because it's limited to a sphere, then we don't have it.

The HP idea is as good as it gets.
BEATMANIUH
User avatar
Chronomaster
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:13 pm

Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby Forsakensoul » Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:16 am

2 sp is too strong
1 sp is too weak
10 hp is too weak

people will disagree/agree on different things (see the assassin op thread)

+25 HP wouldnt be too bad but could cause havoc in renally/legyre. add 25 hp to legyre over and over and over. Making it so near death he can just standby and gain back a good 60-70 health and be back in it again. Hell I would probably splash heals in my deck if I could add 25 life to him repeadetly. I mean once I got him up to 200 life it would be VERY worthwhile for me to toss 1 more point in for a full heal.
Forsakensoul
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:02 pm

Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby Peralisc2 » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:11 am

+15 HP/+10 Max HP should be a better answer

Why? Well wisp should heal a bit the unit you are buffing.
Wisp is a great card even as it is now, in good refess decks such dwild's or other few refess players that use up some of the low level cards, it gives +10 HP and + 10 Max HP to units that have decent DF. But what if i play acolyte or some other decent HP cards that you can find in the refess starter? Those usualy just get +10 hp / +10 max hp when they are like 25/55 or smtg and being 35/65 a turn later won't make the wisp look any bit better.

But if you do have 35/65 and a bonus of 10 DF, well that will make it so much more worth it. The problem with this would be that players who play high level units would abuse the wisp more than other spirits, even if it's only for 1 turn.
Now let's see, your unit gets no +DF, but hey it got +15 HP back, that will make it hold longer in most cases!

short :

A 40/65 unit instead of 25/65 is a good invesment for 1 SP.

Why i disagree with greater +hp/+max hp, people just lame and abuse max hp so much as they abuse and lame with high level creatures. I don't say that we should just remove high creatures, but both, high and low creatures should be seen lower as often as the higher!
_________________

Now instead of making wisp stronger with it' maximum HP and hp heal. Let's just think better about what refess can complain about with a starter deck.
Well what hurt me when i played refess was my RANGE! I have a nice amount of decent HP units, but they are mostly 1-2 range. T_T
brutal inquisitor and ancient spear knight will be on the same row
i have a lot of 1 RNG units in my card file
and you all know the damn row skills ...

Why not just turn wisp into a permanent +1 RNG spirit?
I mean ya + max hp + hp is decent, but not for refess, i got blessing and full hp heal. Add more heals and we end up mass dragon decks with mass refess heals.

Also i removed the wisp from my deck when i played in crest. It just takes up space and refess already has decent HP, also i don't often get to make use of the max extra hp since your units are damn slow and when its their turn to attack you'd better attack because there might not be a second chance. >_>

How much i wished for an invisibility's edge! Damn it! So they won't just row wipe me or force me to place an 1 RNG unit on the second row!!
With the 1 RNG buff, your wisp can be placed front row while you have a tanker on the second row. You can get an acolyte with RNG 2 that will be protected by a 20 HP wisp on first row.

This extra range idea makes refess so much less vulnerable. I would like to try again a refess starter with this modified extra 1 range wisp.

___________

Well if +1 rng isnt enough you could just make it into a +10 hp + 1 rng spirit. It's bad to incourage players to skip turns so they heal less than the damaged they get. But i would stick to +1 RNG.
ImageImage
Alteil is pretty much well balanced. Sometimes you loose and sometimes the enemy wins.
Peralisc2
 
Posts: 7031
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:38 pm
Location: planet of the self-proclaimed evolving apes

Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby lupos » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:20 am

Lawtia angel + 3 will-o-wisp ftw :P



... or atleast fttfomo (for the temporary frustration of my opponent)
User avatar
lupos
Site Admin
 
Posts: 959
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 4:31 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby Candi » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:21 am

lupos wrote:Lawtia angel + 3 will-o-wisp ftw :P



... or atleast fttfomo (for the temporary frustration of my opponent)

*cough* blessing. *cough*
Image
User avatar
Candi
 
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:14 pm

Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby DanTheTimid » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:48 am

lupos wrote:Lawtia angel + 3 will-o-wisp ftw :P



... or atleast fttfomo (for the temporary frustration of my opponent)


Giving up not one, not 2, but 3 cards, 3 turns where you could have set something more useful, and 1 sp burned in a refess level, so that it takes my an extra salamander attack each turn to kill her? Huge defensive buffs on lawtia angel tend to frustrate me, but a few small hp boosts don't generally bother me at all, especially when they provide me even more easy ways to peck away at your LP by popping those useless wisps.

I do feel wisp's skill is the weakest skill among the great spirits... but I don't think its worthless. In my comparison I even granted that its almost on par with salamanders. The key difference that makes salamander so useful and wisp so not isn't the skill, but the fact that wisp, having no range, can't hide behind things and poke away at your opponents front line or great hiding great spirits. Its the same problem combat priest has that prevents it from seeing significant play. Front line untis either need to hit fast, or be able to take a hit and live to tell the tale, other wise their useless as they are the first things that take damage. Wisp can do neither yet his range of 1, unlike the other spirits, forces him to be in the front row if he wants to contribute offensively. Its a huge disadvantage that has no justification for it (atleast in the english game, in the Japanese game his skill easily justifies such terrible stats).

It bears repeating that my point isn't to make this topic about suggesting how wisp should be rebalanced (though I'll be the first to admit its fun as all get out to come up with rebalance ideas), its about the fact that it clearly IS inferior to the other great spirits, yet through non-action the Nice, Hard Working, Japanese People have told us they feel it is equal to them. I'm trying to call out to the Nice, Hard Working, Japanese People (or to get the GMs to call out to them for us) to really take notice of this issue and actually do something about it.
The bunnies of Lavato have special abilities, like 'Action Skill: Make Carrot Disappear.'
User avatar
DanTheTimid
 
Posts: 1394
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:10 pm
Location: Glendale, AZ

Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby lupos » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:52 pm

I know it's not the best thing but I have done fairly well just boosting the heck out of the angel over time. Wouldn't rely solely on the wisps but every little bit helps.

As for the topic at hand, I do personally agree the wisp is inferior to the salamander but it's hard to use just these two for comparison. There are currently 52 cards in each sphere with a great deal of variety all around. Some cards do have near parity across more than one sphere but not all. Wheres my Vordor? Where're Refess dragons for that matter?

Is Refess too weak? Possibly. Would fixing just this one "issue" change that? Probably not. Am I the one who should be figuring out the solution? Aw hell naw! The amount of complexity involved in balancing something like this hurts my head. I'm pretty smart, but that level of detail is to much for my ADD riddled brain. Thankfully people more suited to this sort of thing than me are on the case.
User avatar
lupos
Site Admin
 
Posts: 959
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 4:31 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby Gota » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:54 pm

Refess seriously need some LV1 ..... Can't do much in that deck's opening.. lol
Its not like Lawtia where they can first/second turn shade then drop a LV3.
What is Refess gonna drop?

will o' wisp?
Puff ball?
Armed citizen?
Boy combat priest?

They HAVE to drop aco, then drop any one of the above, sure you can first turn skip, but shade and return will totally kill you.

Not to mention they also lack any decent LV2 in the starter deck, other than aco i guess... which he doesn't do jack squat since he will get pounded first every turn, and with 25 attack, he can't even kill kurina or combat monk, while the monk can potentially waste him in 1 hit, and kurina can revive for free.

Sure he can kill haste soldier, but haste can revive for free and have an AGI of 5. Aco's 5 def skill isn't worth anything. If the Falkow player starts with witch instead of haste, then you are totally done for.

Refess lacks an opening move that is stable, they are already going to have a bumpy ride the whole game with the AGI department, but with even a lackluster start, they're REALLY inferior...
Image
Logress wrote:Gota: I just looked at your lottery logs... I officially declare you the most unlucky man on earth.
User avatar
Gota
 
Posts: 2545
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:52 am

PreviousNext

Return to Alteil General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest