Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

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Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby kitsunekit » Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:18 pm

I did hear one of the problems with the wisp giving SP was also the constant backlashing in the japanese game.

You know, you could give it a skill like:

[Open]
This card does not backlash.

or even (although this may look confusing to some:)

[Open]
Change this cards name to "Will-o-Wisp X", where X equals the number of Will-o-Wisp in play or being put into play. It does not backlash with other Will-o-Wisp.

Unfortunately, [Open] occurs AFTER backlash. So it would require some more programming...
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Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby DanTheTimid » Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:16 pm

lupos wrote:As for the topic at hand, I do personally agree the wisp is inferior to the salamander but it's hard to use just these two for comparison. There are currently 52 cards in each sphere with a great deal of variety all around. Some cards do have near parity across more than one sphere but not all. Wheres my Vordor? Where're Refess dragons for that matter?


I'm not quite sure why its hard to use these 2 cards for comparison, they do almost identical things, just mirrored. If I had chosen to compare wisp to sylph that would be a different story, whose really to say which is a more useful effect, +10 hp or +5 AGI. Even if I could prove Sylphs stats are better (which I believe they are) I have no easy way to disprove that +10 hp isn't better then +5 AGI and thus the units as a whole are balanced. Salamander however does -10 hp, and while the effect isn't identical, its so similar that it was very to give a fair comparison to both cards as I did.

If you mean to suggest salamander is better then wisp because gowen naturally has better level 1s, then what is it that refess is better at? Its definitely not level 2s. Level 3-5s seem comparable, as do level 7s, and refess doesn't even have a level 9 like gowen does. If refess is supposed to be terrible at level ones it stands to reason they should stand out as being better at some other level but honestly I don't see it.

Further if you consider that Wisp was the best level 1 in the entire Japanese game it seems hard to believe the intent was for refess to have weak level 1s, from the beginning in Japan they were intended to have the best level 1s (or atleast equal to everyone else and it just turned out they were the best). Alot of our refess cards are changed from theres (everyone I've seen has been weakened) but many have not, if they truly intended to completely change the balance of the refess clan so that it was no longer good at low levels but better at high levels wouldn't all the high levels have seen improvements?

lupos wrote:Is Refess too weak? Possibly. Would fixing just this one "issue" change that? Probably not. Am I the one who should be figuring out the solution? Aw hell naw! The amount of complexity involved in balancing something like this hurts my head. I'm pretty smart, but that level of detail is to much for my ADD riddled brain. Thankfully people more suited to this sort of thing than me are on the case.


Actually I do believe fixing just this one issue actually would have a significant impact. As some one whose had EXTENSIVE experience with Refess its been my opinion that the reason they are too weak is in large part due to not having a powerful level 1 like every other sphere has. Its not their only problem, but it is in my experience their biggest problem. The rest of their cards are slow and don't hit hard, but if you know how to use them correctly they can go toe to toe with the cards of the same level from the other clans for the most part. Its only at level 1 that I feel (and have illustrated) there is a truly significant gap in power, and unfortunately level 1s are so essential to the average deck that you can't just ignore them with out significant negative consequences. Give refess a level 1 thats actually worth its memory on the server and for the first time refess might actually be able to battle on even ground with the other spheres and not always trying to recover from their inherent disadvantage.

But whether it does significantly help refess or not isn't whats most important to me, call me neurotic but balance in my card games is very important to me, when I see imbalance and it isn't fixed it tends to drive me nuts. Alot of cards I thought were imbalanced I let go because I wasn't sure they were truly imbalanced, I had nothing to compare them too and no way to prove my claims. Not so with Will-o-Wisp. I have clear evidence of imbalance and not one person has argued that it was balanced, not even one jokingly just to **** with me (which is surprising). Its because the evidence speaks for itself, the card is weaker then it should be and has been long over due for a rebalancing.

The question now is whether or not the Nice, Hard Working, Japanese People will take notice and actually care, if a well balance game truly matters to them, or if they will continue to ignore it and ignore us, not giving us any response or justification for leaving the card in its clearly imbalanced state. As a paying customer its very important to me that those in charge of balancing this game actually care about its customer's plight and aren't just throwing things together then relaxing in a hot tub filled with the money we paid.

And again, I truly believe the english GMs care about the game and its players, and its because they HAVE spoken on the issue and have taken some actions. I'm willing to believe in the Nice, Hard Working, Japanese People, but they have to give me a reason to believe. So far I've neither heard anything from them nor seen a single action taken on a card the players have been upset about. Infact if anything the release of Alphonse's 2LP soul skill after all the complaining about Lebeau's 1LP identical soul skill almost seemed like a slap in the fact.
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Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby kitsunekit » Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:34 pm

I agree with Dan. Besides, you can't look at a card above level 1 and say it makes up for a lack of decent level 1 units. Level 1 units are vitally important. There are currently around 4 cards in common use that completely or pretty-much-completely drain your SP. Assuming you have to revive a unit at the same time, that leaves you with 1 SP; just enough to play a level 1. The other spheres don't have to worry about this situation quite as much, as they have great spirits that actually do something...

On another note, le Beau/Alphonse were destroyed, along with many Refess decks, by the appearance of many DEF debuffers in the EX pack and 2nd set.
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Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby lupos » Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:41 pm

Dangit, they took the hot tub full of money, I was wondering where that went... Thank god the sauna heated by burning money is still here. :P

Dare to dream eh? Anyway, as I said, I'm not arguing the wisp to sal comparison, but as you said its very difficult to make direct comparisons across the board because a lot of them matter in how they are meant to interact with each other. again, to be clear, I tend to think you're right, but it's difficult to see exactly how such a small change will really play out. Not to mention which of the small changes suggested are the right one. We are writing to ask about this very shortly. As well as suggesting some ideas as to how best test balance issues in the future.

As to when a solution comes and in what form, EX, expansion, errata, I can't say, but this doesn't fall on deaf ears. We will get it right, just might take a little bit. ;loading
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Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby DanTheTimid » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:06 pm

kitsunekit wrote:I agree with Dan. Besides, you can't look at a card above level 1 and say it makes up for a lack of decent level 1 units. Level 1 units are vitally important. There are currently around 4 cards in common use that completely or pretty-much-completely drain your SP. Assuming you have to revive a unit at the same time, that leaves you with 1 SP; just enough to play a level 1. The other spheres don't have to worry about this situation quite as much, as they have great spirits that actually do something...

On another note, le Beau/Alphonse were destroyed, along with many Refess decks, by the appearance of many DEF debuffers in the EX pack and 2nd set.


Lebeau definitely isn't the problem it used to be thanks to all the defense buff hate, but you have to admit theres something ironic and perhaps even a little sinister in them releasing an ever better version of a card that was so despised for so long in the english game in the very next set.

Personally I'd MUCH prefer if they'd buff our current level 1s then simply make us wait another set or ex pack to finally recieve a decent level 1 and fix the problem indirectly as they did with Lebeau but I have a sneaking suspicion that if this problem is even dealt with at all, thats how its going to be done. By indirectly I mean they didn't reduce Lebeau's power, infact I still believe Lebeau is over powered, they simply released enough hard counters to what he does that it made his power a moot point. They could do the same thing with wisp, not buff him at all in which case I'd still believe he was under powered, but then release enough good level 1 refess cards so that people people could just ignore the fact wisp sucked. This would have the downside for them of decreased sales of set 1 packs among refess players so hopefully this will not be the route they take and they'll instead rebalance our existing cards.

lupos wrote:Dangit, they took the hot tub full of money, I was wondering where that went... Thank god the sauna heated by burning money is still here. :P

Dare to dream eh? Anyway, as I said, I'm not arguing the wisp to sal comparison, but as you said its very difficult to make direct comparisons across the board because a lot of them matter in how they are meant to interact with each other. again, to be clear, I tend to think your right, but it's difficult to see exactly how such a small change will really play out. Not to mention which of the small changes suggested are the right one. We are writing to ask about this very shortly. As well as suggesting some ideas as to how best test balance issues in the future.

As to when a solution comes and in what form, EX, expansion, errata, I can't say, but this doesn't fall on def ears. We will get it right, just might take a little bit. ;loading


I was joking but honestly who really knows, I've seen some strange things done by wealthy people, Japanese or other wise. If Alteil really is the number one online card game in japan they can't be doing too badly.

In any case its always VERY nice to know atleast the english GMs are doing something about these sort of issues. I truly am quite sorry that I constantly show up on the forum as a complainer in threads like these, but my intent is always in what I feel is the best interest of the game, not to be a hassle for you. Unfortunately if no one speaks up, then nothing gets done, and while ever since it was made clear to me that I was seen as a pain in the GM's back sides I have been making a conscious effort to keep my opinions to myself, this is an issue I feel has gone un-addressed for far too long. As some one once said to me on this forum (ironically in a failed attempt to tell me I was complaining too much) the squeaky wheel gets the grease, if I have to be the one to squeak even if it means drawing the annoyance of those above me, I'm going to take that burden to help keep this wheel rolling smoothly.
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Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby DearestNight » Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:31 pm

Effect: Give target unit +10 maxhp/+10 hp

Secondary: If previous effect was used on a [Refess] unit gain +1 sp.

That's my vote. ^_^

This means that a players first two cards (wisp included) would have to be Refess in order to gain the sp effect, which most players won't waste one of those turns on if they aren't a Refess main, and still aren't netting a gain until it dies. Now true, this could be chained to a 2nd and 3rd wisp to make a truer gain, but show me a mixed deck that can spend the first four turns on said wisp building only and survive field control. Doubt there is one, simply because, it's doubtful you can make those wisps survive long enough to receive the hp effect, thus triggering the sp effect. No mixed player will trade four turns for 2 extra sp. Why 2?

Minimum level 1 refess sphere(1 sp)
A unit must be present on the field that is refess (minimum 1-2 sp)
The sp spent on 3 wisps (3 sp)

5-6

Gain?
lvl 1 or 2 refess creature death (1-2 sp)
3 wisp deaths (3 sp)
3 wisp effects (3 sp)

7-8


So, unless you're Refess main, you could maximum only gain 2 sp under PERFECT circumstances during four turns in which somehow, miraculously, you always have either that unit or another wisp alive to cast the new wisp on. Likelihood? Near zero. This removes the possibility of other spheres genuinely abusing it. Mid to late game? They won't have -time- to abuse it, nor would they want to. If they're ahead, bring out your gamebreakers, if they're behind, waste time on a refess unit just to wisp it? Negative. lol. What this would bring Refess mains though, is the ability to use its effect any time, to buff a tank and get a little sp lovin' as a reward for giving the buff love to wisps own sphere. On the contrary, this would still allow those other sphere players who -like- the hp effect, to keep using it.

So, the first issue, of it being abused by all decks would be irrelevent.
Now, what about whether or not this would be overpowered for Refess mains?

No argument. No one could prove this would overpower Refess, because it wouldn't.

Unfortunately, there is -no- way to give the wisp sp bonus as an Open skill (with no restrictions), without balancing how other decks would abuse it. People would find a way. Personally, I find this setup fair. Does this solve Refess' level one unit problem? Gods no. They still need a more viable level 1, BECAUSE of how things got balanced. A -new- card for their starter. Maybe from a future set, or entirely fresh, but, facts are they have no viable unit even with my idea, to go the 1-3-1 style of summoning. And sure, maybe they were geared over time to not focus on 1's, with differant turn styles. But even then, that doesn't change, that the japanese ref starter has a level 1 that -does something on the very first turn- (sure, salamander doesnt either, but wisp cant kill a lvl 2 ;-), and undine and sylph have effects that make them worthwhile -period- ).

Just my thoughts.

P.S. The new level 1 should be chibi-la pierre. *nod*
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Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby Peralisc2 » Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:50 pm

Gota wrote:Refess seriously need some LV1 ..... Can't do much in that deck's opening.. lol
Its not like Lawtia where they can first/second turn shade then drop a LV3.
What is Refess gonna drop?

will o' wisp?
Puff ball?
Armed citizen?
Boy combat priest?

They HAVE to drop aco, then drop any one of the above, sure you can first turn skip, but shade and return will totally kill you.


Bad example. Since those 2 starters are equally balanced.
And since you talk about level 1s, take a look at lawtia.
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Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby Phades » Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:28 pm

Er, he specifically mentions lawita opening with shade -> level 3 unit which was the classic set one opening...
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Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby Peralisc2 » Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:59 pm

Phades wrote:Er, he specifically mentions lawita opening with shade -> level 3 unit which was the classic set one opening...

Didn't know it's used since set 1. People even today use it in crest and in florart because they dont have much choice.
To bad everyone expects the first turn shade. Thanks for the info, but we're discussing refess issues.


Another thing that bothers me about the spirits. Maybe i just missed the topic where this question is answered, but why is there only 1 spirit for lawtia and refess? Will there be others added in later sets to even things out? :|
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Re: Salamander vs Will-o-Wisp, clear imbalance?

Postby Candi » Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:03 pm

Peralisc2 wrote:
Phades wrote:Er, he specifically mentions lawita opening with shade -> level 3 unit which was the classic set one opening...

Didn't know it's used since set 1. People even today use it in crest and in florart because they dont have much choice.
To bad everyone expects the first turn shade. Thanks for the info, but we're discussing refess issues.


Another thing that bothers me about the spirits. Maybe i just missed the topic where this question is answered, but why is there only 1 spirit for lawtia and refess? Will there be others added in later sets to even things out? :|


Fun fact, Soul Keeper / Pimilliar is a great spirit! :D
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