The Assassin Menace

Everything that doesn't go anywhere else.

Re: The Assassin Menace

Postby Candi » Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:52 am

teasel wrote:i don't see how set 3 is going to help... when the game started everybody was playing gowen,then set 2 got released and everybody is playing big creature... when set 3 is gonna hit people are just going to find the next broken deck and start playing that like crazy (my money is on the proxy... level 3 creature with a crap ton of effect depending if you have ranks in the other color) the problem isn't lack of variety,the problem reside in you guys,i can name at least 30 card which i have never ever seen in play...


Seconded.

The meta is stale because the players make it stale. There are tons of viable decks that don't see usage because no one bothers. There is this overwhelming opinion that either:
A. I pay money and should not have to change my deck to win
B. I don't pay money and I can't beat 5 stars, why bother trying
C. Everyone uses card files A,B,C so I'm going to use them

With the exclusion of CSquared who's played a Femiel SS RNG denial file? You'd be surprised at how effective it can be. Challenge of the Fortnight's goal is to get people to use those unused cards, unfortunately once the challenge is over few people pick up challenge files and perfect them. It's all about the instant gratification.

I made a thread a while about Challenging the Meta... My goal of the thread was to brain storm a whole bunch of file that stood up to Big Creatures and Rush files at the same time. The thread went to about 3-4 pages and in that time only 2 files were posted, everything else was demands for Set 3 on the premise that it was the only hope and complaints about the current meta and why it's impossible for it to change - this is the mentality of our player base. Everyone seems adverse to putting effort into making something new or unique, spreading their wings and flying.

Will set 3 help? No, it's a band-aid solution that, just like nerfing assassin, will attack the symptom not the problem itself. We need a larger player base, it's really that simple. With more players there should be more variability and you won't be facing the BB files every second match and so running triple assassin actually becomes detrimental because an overwhelming number of your opponents won't be totally devastated by it.
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Re: The Assassin Menace

Postby DanTheTimid » Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:40 pm

neonsun wrote:on a side note:
Now where i disagree with u galadros , even thou skill or strategy play a very important role they are 2nd to luck, remember that most tcg require a player to pick 5 cards when the game begins, and again when strategies are matched and 2 units are on the entire field with 1 lp left , those agi rolls determine whose the winner most of the times.
-->when 2 skilled duelist are fighting luck is often the win determining factor


Don't misunderstand, luck does play a role, but its not the most important. Take a look at poker, one of the most luck based card games out there. You don't build your deck, infact all players play from the same deck which contains cards of highly variable power. Yet if you look at the pro circuit you find the same handful of players keep ending up at the final table and several players have won multiple titles at events that started with over a thousand people. How is this possible? If luck truly is the most important factor I'd start rubbing myself against these individuals cause they aren't just insanely lucky, their consistently insanely lucky. But the truth is their not always lucky, but those players are so skilled they can over come bad luck, winning hands with nothing and sucking the most money out of their opponents when they do get good hands, etc.

I will grant you that if 2 duelists are of equal skill, luck will be the deciding factor, but if their not of equal skill, more times then not the more skillful one is going to win.

Of course this only holds true for games where skill is able to play a role, a tcg thats purely luck based, that doesn't allow skill to play a strong if any role in the outcome, then luck will be the major factor. But off hand I can't think of any such tcg, and odds are if there are any like that, they probably didn't last long. If I wanted a purely luck based game I'd just play War (a child's card game in which a standard deck of cards in divided in half and then each player simultaneously reveals the top card of the deck, whoevers card has the higher value wins the round and you continue until both decks are used up. Whoever won the most rounds wins the game)

Candi wrote:I made a thread a while about Challenging the Meta... My goal of the thread was to brain storm a whole bunch of file that stood up to Big Creatures and Rush files at the same time. The thread went to about 3-4 pages and in that time only 2 files were posted, everything else was demands for Set 3 on the premise that it was the only hope and complaints about the current meta and why it's impossible for it to change - this is the mentality of our player base. Everyone seems adverse to putting effort into making something new or unique, spreading their wings and flying.


Note entirely true, a number of people, myself included, pointed out that most of the players simply don't have the cards TO try anything else. This is a result of the game need for 3 copies of a card to use it. I was known for much of set 1 for running something almost no one else was, refess builds, but shortly into set 2 I stopped running them. Did I give up on refess, kind of, but not because I was convinced they couldn't win, but beause I was convinced they couldn't win with set 1 cards. Inspite of buying 4 boxes of set 2 I had only gotten a handful of 3 card sets of refess units, and almost none of them were the characters I was hoping to get. One priestess of the holy weapon, 0 priest of the holy word, 2 inquisition raiders, 2 coatl, I just couldn't seem to get a playset of anything I was looking for. When you consider I spent quite a bit of money and couldn't get playsets of 1 and 2 star cards I needed to try new things its easy to understand why free players or players who spend less might have trouble trying out new strategies.
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Re: The Assassin Menace

Postby Forsakensoul » Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:42 pm

I have tried multiple different files but assassin causes me more problems then any other card regardless of which file i play.
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Re: The Assassin Menace

Postby neonsun » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:36 pm

dan u play WAR !!??!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?
i used to too !!!!!
lol lol lol
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Re: The Assassin Menace

Postby Phades » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:59 pm

Candi wrote:
teasel wrote:i don't see how set 3 is going to help... when the game started everybody was playing gowen,then set 2 got released and everybody is playing big creature... when set 3 is gonna hit people are just going to find the next broken deck and start playing that like crazy (my money is on the proxy... level 3 creature with a crap ton of effect depending if you have ranks in the other color) the problem isn't lack of variety,the problem reside in you guys,i can name at least 30 card which i have never ever seen in play...


Seconded.

The meta is stale because the players make it stale. There are tons of viable decks that don't see usage because no one bothers. There is this overwhelming opinion that either:
A. I pay money and should not have to change my deck to win
B. I don't pay money and I can't beat 5 stars, why bother trying
C. Everyone uses card files A,B,C so I'm going to use them
You are missing the underlying principle of how they intend to make money from this game. They will release new things that topple the old in order to continually dangle the carrot on the end of an ever growing stick. In order to reach the carrot, you will have to spend money. Unfortunately, this style of bait and switch change to a game causes a power creep and constant imbalances that actually promote those 3 instances you list opposed to discoraging it and it takes a ton of effort and money to try and work around this. Combine this with the fact that many wish to attempt to play the game without spending money makes this an impossible mantra to break away from in the long term. Other game systems have compounded this problem by limiting the usable playset options through restrictions over time forcing the player to adapt through money or quit. This can even be found within MMO style games that are updated regularly or have content expansions. Any change made in those environments that switches the order of power around or introduces something new to chase causes more money to flow out of the user base in order to keep up in the long term and the more competitive of an environment the game is, the worse it is for the casual player.

The opposition to this would be to create an environment where the mechanics of the game lend its self to future expansion, but do not require expansions to keep the content interesting to the user and the interest to play is the driving force instead of chasing "what is best". This is accomplished by not deliberately creating or allowing distinctively stronger plays or instances over time in addition to keeping the number of choices made at each of those plays as diverse as possible. Typically games of the FPS genre and RTS come the closest to achieving this model, but have their own individual failings in various areas.
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Re: The Assassin Menace

Postby ANIMEniac » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:06 pm

Careful about the call for an expansion so soon. It can hurt more than help the game.

1) Expansion too soon means players have ot divert money to get the new cards.
2) Will discourage then from buying the old set for playsets and chase rares.
3) The current community will not favor a new release (read: as willing to invest) in the third set with how things are now.
4) The more and more cards we get, the more overwhelmed new players will feel trying to collect cards.

I would rather have a stable and sizable community than new cards to play with. Honestly, I really don't want to invest more ATM b/c the game does not look very healthy in terms of community. I have already had bad experience with CCG/TCG games I loved and invested in getting canned or having no one to play anymore.
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Re: The Assassin Menace

Postby teasel » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:53 am

while it's true that people lack cards and therefore can't build what they want, danthetimid doesn't consider one thing... those guys aren't the one who are making the meta! they are the one playing with a modified starter!
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Re: The Assassin Menace

Postby Illyasviel » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:11 pm

ANIMEniac wrote:Careful about the call for an expansion so soon. It can hurt more than help the game.

1) Expansion too soon means players have ot divert money to get the new cards.
2) Will discourage then from buying the old set for playsets and chase rares.
3) The current community will not favor a new release (read: as willing to invest) in the third set with how things are now.
4) The more and more cards we get, the more overwhelmed new players will feel trying to collect cards.

I would rather have a stable and sizable community than new cards to play with. Honestly, I really don't want to invest more ATM b/c the game does not look very healthy in terms of community. I have already had bad experience with CCG/TCG games I loved and invested in getting canned or having no one to play anymore.


I agree. As a free player, I've only gotten like three booster packs of Set 2 so far. (Plus a couple of the seasonal cards from the new lotto!<3) But overall, my Set 2 collection is downright miniscule. If Set 3 came out before too much longer, I'd quite frankly be overwhelmed. There's still a lot I don't know about Set 2, and a lot of cards I want to get, especially if I wanted to be competitive. But if Set 3 comes out, then I'd have to worry about new cards that change everything, new cards that I'd need to keep up with everyone, new cards to replace my 'new' cards because Set 2 wouldn't be enough to keep up.

That being said, if the sets do start coming out faster and faster, I'd probably say 'heck with it', and go back to only buying Set 1, just for an Annarose card, and likely completely quit the Arenas, since there would be such a tiny chance of me actually wining against what would be hundreds of cards I'd never seen before.
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Re: The Assassin Menace

Postby neonsun » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:02 am

To Answer previous posters , yes set 3 is far from the perfect solution.

I also want to point out how sooooo many people change decks its amazing !!weird thou when i m actually active and play in folrart i dont see that many different decks LOL i really dont and most players in the chat in the evenings dont too LOL. funny **** hey !
Many people claim changing their decks , they do... only for the training area.

However blaming people about not changing their decks is a ridicule idea(i m sorry it is).
i think the proverbial american phrase is "dont fix it if it aint broken", why would duelist X change his deck if he wins with it.


Since we cant change people (ohh i know u wish u could :P ) we have to adapt the game. In this case dropping a set 3 in our lap to broaden the scope of play might help.
many free players wont be able to follow, fine !!!!! any Iczer who plays in folrart more than 5 games in the first week gets x number of free packs or some other rule.
Remember people giving out stuff for free is not wrong, it really isnt, the best things in life are free (that s what i heard ;-p ).

Bottom line: the game is stale , it has reached top momentum and now is accelerating down for a nice big crash, the main problem :
ITS NOT assassin SS
ITS NOT big deck
ITS NOT strategy blabla (insert deck problems here)
ITS NOT the price or the set number
--> the problem is --> THE PLAYER BASE !!
Whose responsible for this, the game managers, the gms might be the best gs on the planet , a game with no players is not a game lol. The responsibility of getting new players falls on the managing team. what is needed is advertisement !

Advertisement is :banners (mainly), magazines (electronic and paper), emails etccc BUT it also includes special offers for new old and returning players , benefits (if old Iczer brings new player to game and noob plays at least 5 games -> sponsor gets x nb of gran).
The overall feeling i m perceiving is mediaschmedia (or whatever is the name of the actual Us company hosting alteil) is not willing to part with its Dollares ,pulling an old scrooge act on us. (dont think they actually believe in their product anymore lol).

this is the 1st week on November, internet should be filled with ads about alteil ->Xmas is coming . Video games are released now in order to assure good sales by Xmas period

--> most proficient advertisement is an advert with a hook that ll grab ya (free stuff for a period of time is the best one ) then u maintain the clients attention buy providing him new **** to play with.
remember in order to indulge oneself one must taste first
--> on that note advertising that alteil is free reminds of those old **** websites i tried to visit in my younger days , you always got bummed reaching a page where credit card was needed and things were not so free. It left me with a bitter aftertaste .
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Re: The Assassin Menace

Postby Nehless » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:27 am

A lot of long lengthy posts with good information! Not sure if it's been stated but I just wanted to say

There should be more cards that directly attack LP like Dical. It stops the Assa/Sal Sol menace! :) Because a unit has to be disengaged to have it taken away :(
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