STARTER FILE CRITIQUE

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Re: STARTER FILE CRITIQUE

Postby fargone » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:35 pm

Icyman2 wrote:
fargone wrote:I'm not trolling, the starters are too underpowered for folrart - its that simple.

That's why we're making new ones
fargone wrote:Unless you can show me where I stated "the prebuilds are optimised for the current meta" I would appreciate an apology for that little **** rant you had in my name.

Maybe you should read over your post. Environment can be interpreted in many ways. Perhaps it's your fault for not being clear. I would appreciate an apology.
fargone wrote:Alteil does indeed need to encourage spending. Your inability to think outside of the box that you are so accustomed to sitting in is your problem, not mine. Thanks for exposing your limited scope of thought regarding changes for the future ;) Your ideas are still focused on getting too much money from each player - and you call others ideas suicidal...

I was more concerned with the availability and powercreep of 4/5 stars rather than the spending options of the players. My concern was getting too much money from a few player and no money from majority because of the divide the 1/2/3 and 4/5 stars would create if your idea was to be implemented.
fargone wrote:As for rules - who appointed you rule maker here? haha

It is my submission thread. I was trying to leave the petty arguments somewhere else so that loggerz or whoever can have a better time sorting through the files.






You keep on talking about how other ppl aren't thinking outside the box, but you're quite obstinate yourself. THis level of pretentiousness that you've built up here further derailing threads by bashing gon all the time has got to stop. Whenever gon makes a post, your post goes immediately after it and contribute nothing to the discussion.
Thanks for exposing your limited scope of thought regarding changes for the future

Tell me how that is not infuriating to read. That style of writing is like blacksun and demongod's (the god of pricks). Snide remarks like that are not welcome here.


Point by point:

You are making new starters at the same power level as the old. IMO they are still UP. I understand they are for learning, but this is also supposed to be a free game. Making it impossible to compete after you learn the game has done nothing to maintain numbers so far. So... keep it up?

"Interpretting" or changing the meaning of my words to suit yourself and then ranting about your "interpretation" is indeed insulting. If you think I owe you an apology for you changing my words, then you are an idiot and I have given you far too much credit for intelligence.

Your concerns for availability are based on current availability and cpc, which logress himself has stated will be addressed. Keep up son, when alteil is reborn (not re-open, but reborn) these issues (in a perfect world) will not be as they are now. Theory crafting ideas based on foundations that plan to not actually be there... not smart.

If you don't like petty arguments, perhaps you should consider or ask where someone is coming from before calling them troll and trying to belittle their ideas? Even more so, perhaps you shouldn't follow a statement like that with petty attacks and generalisations that are simply untrue.

In other words, if you don't want the horns, don't stir up the bull... and don't be a **** hypocrite. The truth is, your first response to me was infuriating. So is your second. In fact, you trolled me and continue to do so. Lol, and then you throw random insults at people who have nothing to do with this thread. I think so far, you are being "the god of pricks". Next time you inhale to insult me and others here for sharing their ideas, why not put part of your body into your mouth and suck yourself off.

... and now you can feel infuriated...

In addressing gon's point about the starters, I am left wondering if better tutorials with vids and stuff for each starter might be the answer there. I know that this is being considered as an option. I am not convinced the issue there is the power level of the starters either (which is also what you said), but do know this has an impact on those who actually do make it out of crest. Of course, I am talking for a set 12 environment - in a set 1 environment power level of starters is a bit of a moot point.
GonFreeces31 wrote:
fargone wrote:I realise this is completely off topic, but Icy deserves the limelight more than others. Some of whom dominate the forums with their endless posts.


What, I make legit points too...
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Re: STARTER FILE CRITIQUE

Postby GonFreeces31 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:02 pm

fargone wrote:In addressing gon's point about the starters, I am left wondering if better tutorials with vids and stuff for each starter might be the answer there. I know that this is being considered as an option. I am not convinced the issue there is the power level of the starters either (which is also what you said), but do know this has an impact on those who actually do make it out of crest. Of course, I am talking for a set 12 environment - in a set 1 environment power level of starters is a bit of a moot point.

Logress has actually been working on totally revolutionizing the starter system for like the past year on and off. I think it's pretty good as it dumbs down the game as much as possible and introduces concepts one at a time. Plus you get to like "level up" your cards.... and we all know how much people like doing that.
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Re: STARTER FILE CRITIQUE

Postby fargone » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:11 pm

Card development? Sounds interesting.
GonFreeces31 wrote:
fargone wrote:I realise this is completely off topic, but Icy deserves the limelight more than others. Some of whom dominate the forums with their endless posts.


What, I make legit points too...
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Re: STARTER FILE CRITIQUE

Postby WhiteDragon2 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:15 pm

Peralisc9001 wrote:Bloody broken record. :?

It simply dosn't work your way and no clue why you are so against a decent starter, you know very well people aren't happy that their starters get trashed.
Unless you came to this game to beat people with less cards than you.


Why do you mention fun when you ignore the fact that competing with money for more wins isn't actually fun?


What gon probably meant is that in the new alteil, starters do not need to have the exact same footing as in the past. In the past alteil you basically got your starter and that was basicaly it. Because of not being able to get cards easily you basically had to use your starter in folrart and thus losing a lot (after all your file is weaker than almost all the files you'll face and your skill level is also likely to be smaller). Everybody agrees that the starters should be better powerwise in that situation.

Whenever new prebuilds came out (except for some hard to play prebuilds like mid lawtia/falkow), the people having a bit of gran on hand could get a prebuild and could play a file that had a better chance to compete compared to their starter. The problem is that you have to be lucky or you have to wait for an unknown ammount of time to get such a file. People not wanting to wait could only use their starters, which are UP in folrart.

If people could get a somewhat competitive file like a prebuild upon leaving crest for free in the new alteil, than the power level of the file they were given for those first 14 levels would really not matter much. In the crest arena nobody would have been given a free prebuild and thus in crest you'll almost always face starters, while once you graduate to folrart you get a better file that at least stands a somewhat decent chance there (especially if errata would make the game more balanced, although like rom stated that is a design decisions as according to his data more balance means less income of the game).

If such a design route is taken the competativeness of starters doesn't matter for the design at all. So the things to strive for would be:
> Easy to play/learn the game with (preferably simple cards like bear killing axeman over more complicated cards like dilate (I know dilate is a 5*, you get the idea :)))
> Fun to play (This includes having a balance between the power level off the starters. Thus each starter should have a good chance of winning against the other starters.)
> Is a good example for the sfere it represents (maybe less important, but would still be nice to have)

GonFreeces31 wrote:Logress has actually been working on totally revolutionizing the starter system for like the past year on and off. I think it's pretty good as it dumbs down the game as much as possible and introduces concepts one at a time. Plus you get to like "level up" your cards.... and we all know how much people like doing that.

Sound interesting, hopefully it'll help the learning process for new players :D
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Re: STARTER FILE CRITIQUE

Postby fargone » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:20 pm

I think another issue with giving people a new file when they hit crest is this:

When you leave crest, you normally leave with some idea on how to play the file you first picked, and that is all. For example, someone who chooses current gowen starter leaves crest knowing how to play the gowen starter. Give them a falkow file, and they have to learn how to play the file all over again. This point leaves me wondering whether the power level of starters really is relevant to the long term sustainability for players.
GonFreeces31 wrote:
fargone wrote:I realise this is completely off topic, but Icy deserves the limelight more than others. Some of whom dominate the forums with their endless posts.


What, I make legit points too...
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Re: STARTER FILE CRITIQUE

Postby Icyman2 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:23 pm

fargone wrote:You are making new starters at the same power level as the old. IMO they are still UP. I understand they are for learning, but this is also supposed to be a free game. Making it impossible to compete after you learn the game has done nothing to maintain numbers so far. So... keep it up?

Why don't you look at the starters before declaring they are up? They have combos that no one has seen before. There's something that does 40 damage to 3 units and triggers a counter. There's something that gives a mini chiruru and a double start--an 80 slash followed by a start engage for any survivors. There is admittedly not so clever greatsword field wipe which timed with death's embrace can take out 3 units at once from the field. That is HUGE. You can even follow that up with heartbreak, especially if your opponent had spare sp after death's embrace. A lot of cards have multiple uses which saves filespace.
I took into account metas like diondora and eternal night. That is why I opted to start with flame swordsman--because he is a level 1 that can kill cath and open up salamander as an option later on. He can also trigger counters in guardian or spiked armdillio, giving refess a lot of offensive power. His auto can kill owl sage if needed. Or if emana mystere is bullying you, bring kp out the turn before and let emana take care of kp. Then trigger domina ss. Oh that 2 spare sp and a copy of mystere? Gone. Same with eternal night. That fernir with 3 lives? Gone. I'll show you that these files can get to top rp and shove those words back into your mouth.

Not that starters need to be powerful apparently. People quit before level 10 so it's more like they got bored of the game or something. I think Rom mentioned this before too. This further proves the point that giving them 20+ choices as starter is stupid.

The rest of your post was too hard to read and try to figure out what you mean. I'm not trying to start a flame war with you, so I'm just going to ignore it. I just told you to watch yourself in hopes that... you actually will, and I tried to do it without sensationalism.
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Re: STARTER FILE CRITIQUE

Postby NitroDino » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:28 pm

Fixing the first 15 level up so they give you standard units, grims and 3rd copy of your char that are not included in your starter. So when you reach folrart you will have a upgraded starter and the treasure battle cards you got from crest.

After that the new player could decide to spend some money on a prebuilt to give him a better chance in folrart or just to stay a free player until he saves enough gran for a prebuilt.
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Re: STARTER FILE CRITIQUE

Postby fargone » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:30 pm

I think we should agree to disagree icyman - what say you?
GonFreeces31 wrote:
fargone wrote:I realise this is completely off topic, but Icy deserves the limelight more than others. Some of whom dominate the forums with their endless posts.


What, I make legit points too...
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Re: STARTER FILE CRITIQUE

Postby Peralisc9001 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:52 pm

WhiteDragon2 wrote:Whenever new prebuilds came out (except for some hard to play prebuilds like mid lawtia/falkow), the people having a bit of gran on hand could get a prebuild and could play a file that had a better chance to compete compared to their starter. The problem is that you have to be lucky or you have to wait for an unknown ammount of time to get such a file. People not wanting to wait could only use their starters, which are UP in folrart.

That is exactly the issue.

Also it backfires if you try to force stuff onto new guys. Let them relax, they just arrived and havn't decided if they wanna stay.

NitroDino wrote:Fixing the first 15 level up so they give you standard units, grims and 3rd copy of your char that are not included in your starter. So when you reach folrart you will have a upgraded starter and the treasure battle cards you got from crest.

After that the new player could decide to spend some money on a prebuilt to give him a better chance in folrart or just to stay a free player until he saves enough gran for a prebuilt.

Why not got the extra mile and give level up cards every level or at least until level 50 with lots of 3 stars such as a certain other alteil version which is more successful with a lower target audience.

fargone wrote:When you leave crest, you normally leave with some idea on how to play the file you first picked, and that is all. For example, someone who chooses current gowen starter leaves crest knowing how to play the gowen starter. Give them a falkow file, and they have to learn how to play the file all over again. This point leaves me wondering whether the power level of starters really is relevant to the long term sustainability for players.

Ya. But also they might have picked that starter because they like the deck itself how it plays and such.

In fact it's best to give people the choice. In every business you are better off when you've given a choice.
That means starters should be useful enough to survive, but if people want to switch they should be given the option to do so. I don't think you should be forced to switch to a prebuilt ...
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perhaps until the game is actually improved through change or perhaps forever since there are so damn many other games and better things to do @_@
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Re: STARTER FILE CRITIQUE

Postby fargone » Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:16 pm

Peralisc9001 wrote: ...


Agreed
GonFreeces31 wrote:
fargone wrote:I realise this is completely off topic, but Icy deserves the limelight more than others. Some of whom dominate the forums with their endless posts.


What, I make legit points too...
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