What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD spam

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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby Callonia » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:36 pm

Muklas wrote:So let me get this straight, a unit that:engages everything on open while providing all your units a perma +10 DF buff ,a start skill that buffs your whole field and has a cheap action skill that will probably oneshot anything it hits while healing all your units ISN'T broken!? He deserves to get hit with the nerf hammer as hard as Bringer did.



Why you act like Verlaat is noze.

Verlaat only can do this, if there is three friendly units on field, which means all three friendly units is engaged and then the max amount of units verlaat can engage is three on enemy field. This is a weakness. And something you can work around. Engage immune units cannot be engaged like Aria if she gets to set up. Or you could, i don't know, use that fairy grim that makes unit immune to engage which always go first and verlaat 2nd.

Geez, so nice of other spheres to already have a counter in place compared to the time i spent suffering bringer's open when i could've blocked it with wisp but couldn't cuz wisp too weak.

And potency of verlaat's action skill is very dependant on how much friendly units verlaat have on field, while potency of Bringer's slaying strike is always the same.

I got trolled extremely hard by two alraunes with bazillions of hp on them, nothing i could do about it except kill one of them and lose. And I lost extremely hard, but at least I managed to take one of the alraunes with me.


I still remember all the times where I couldn't do anything about bringer open and i had to just sit there and suck my thumb and watch him kill my aliria while raging because wisp is a worthless great spirit that can't do **** compared to all other great spirits in other spheres. The worst part is i knew when bringer is coming and i couldn't do anything blessing grimiore too expensive and doesn't fit in my deck etc etc, only answer was wisp and it too worthless, and it used to be too worthless. Its too bad they didn't errata the wisp long time ago instead of when its too late after now that all the bkr abusers is in hiding :P Only time i could ever use wisp is to counter sakura and that was it.
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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby Peralisc9001 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:39 pm

No. We need verlaat, we totally don't need fallow returns. Refess NEEDS verlaat!

His open costs 2 sp and he relies on large field.


The bringer jack rivers nerf does not make any sense tho. They were perfectly balanced to meta and returns.
Totally need to undo these nerfs if return stays.
Last edited by Peralisc9001 on Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby AqvasFire2 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:40 pm

GonFreeces31 wrote:Pheonix chick I can see an argument for. Miffyre and Verlaat I really don't think are overpowered. Level 4 units have been powercreeped by guardian for years now, so it's good that there is one that's being talked about. Verlaat certainly pushes the envelope - but I suspect he's just really strong against certain file types. For example lots of snowbally tribes like a well played shrine knights, orcs, or command dolls shouldn't have too much of a problem verse Verlaat.


Miffles not OP? She's easily the best SP gen in the game. With Marduk and Urgrant, you A) have to multisphere, B) leave SP floating so Lawtia has a field day C) play them first without any support. Miffles you drop behind a ref citizens, come down with guardian the next turn, and you have this exceptionally durable SP generator hiding behind a guardian.

I mean put it this way: most "rush" files are level 3s on 2 SP a turn. Miffles gives you a consistent 3 SP per turn on a unit that does other very cool things and can take a hit, and rest while generating it (unlike Marduk). She essentially allows you to rush out level 4s (Judie, Guardian, and then one level up Phoenix chick and Verlaat) like it's nobody's business.

Also, another thing:
Falkow's SP gen is still one owl sage.
Gowen still has to eat tidals with archer scout.
Lawtia has yet to get any unit with an SP-generating action/auto skill.

Refess has puffball, bunny, and now miffles, who's by far and away better than anything else in the game.

No, she's not exactly omfg OPOP, but what about the other spheres? How come they can't have anything decent?

Also...it's not so much Verlaat and miffles and gang are OPOP as all the other spheres lost so many of their metas. Here are a list of metas that didn't just get powercreeped over but got knocked out of contention by deliberate errata:

Gowen:
Gowen Fierte (RFA, Rhino, Bringer nerfs, though powercreep responsible here too)
BKR (Jack nerfs, Bringer nerfs)
Big Red (Bringer, Mirelia possibly, Dilate, Ruuca, depending on your variant, Primclone variant gone thanks to effectively deleting EXPrim's open)
Dilate/Ruuca (Ruuca deleted as a tier 1 unit)
Pixies (not so much lost as you'd have to camp the crap out of your opponent to win instead of adapting on the fly)

Falkow:
Grimcount toolbox (aka set 5/6 Mirelia)
Set 6 Pegasus Kingdom (would be flat out fair by today's standards)
Emana/Mystere (Emki may be bringing it back if he's playing what I think he is to keep top RP)
Diondora Control (loss of elite as setup tank meant loss of three card slots to fit in sea hunter, this was big)
Emana/Mystere/Harpist (Emana and Harpist both nerfed)
Big blue: so I hear Legrye used to have 130 HP.

Lawtia:
Lawtia's been pretty solid. Which is why it's so prevalent in Folrart right now--it's largely managed to avoid the nerf hammer.

Refess:
EXLap in all its variants. Basically, you can play any Refess you'd like, except EXLap.
Big Refess: not so much lost as "why the heck would you want to play big refess when mid refess plays similarly and doesn't get steamrolled by a Fierte"

So yeah, Gon, you're right. In this environment of augments/dolls/EN vs. mid refess, mid refess isn't uncontested king of the hill. But Gowen and Falkow have simply been knocked out of contention not through emergent gameplay but constantly getting the nerf bat everywhere, whereas some of the metas that they used to have may have been broken back then, but would be fair in this environment when more tools are available to counter them.
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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby InfernityFan » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:52 pm

AqvasFire2 wrote:Lawtia has yet to get any unit with an SP-generating action/auto skill.

Stop right there. Lawtia has those... wait for it... Crest Orderly and Ancient Zombie Lord! AZL even does it in style (close skill).

But yeah, they suck.
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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby GonFreeces31 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:56 pm

Refess is supposed to have really strong SP gen capabilities. Lawtia and Gowen are not. It's part of the color pie. I don't really see an issue with a unit that SP gens every turn as long as it has such weak offensive capabilities. Miffyre is a great unit for mid-Refess and I really hope she never gets nerfed.

Aquas I think you're exaggerating on how harshly some things have been nerfed. A lot of those files you listed are still REALLY strong, just not as trendy anymore. Don't assume just cause the spikes aren't playing something it isn't really powerful.

For example pixies are still tier 1 I think, the same set they were nerfed Worthing made #1 in RP with them. BKR/Jack is still dam strong despite the lack of it being played as much.
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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby Icyman2 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:22 pm

Commence DG complaining about anything I play.
Btw, Verlaat was nerfed. He had 15 defense start before.
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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby AqvasFire2 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:48 pm

GonFreeces31 wrote:Refess is supposed to have really strong SP gen capabilities. Lawtia and Gowen are not. It's part of the color pie. I don't really see an issue with a unit that SP gens every turn as long as it has such weak offensive capabilities. Miffyre is a great unit for mid-Refess and I really hope she never gets nerfed.

Aquas I think you're exaggerating on how harshly some things have been nerfed. A lot of those files you listed are still REALLY strong, just not as trendy anymore. Don't assume just cause the spikes aren't playing something it isn't really powerful.

For example pixies are still tier 1 I think, the same set they were nerfed Worthing made #1 in RP with them. BKR/Jack is still dam strong despite the lack of it being played as much.


Bullcrap. I know you data balance guys only look for if a file is "competitive", but what you probably aren't looking for as a sign of a healthy file is if it can hold up in almost every match it comes across. The difference between an 1800 and a 2200 RP file in a 2k environment isn't that it's very dominant in good matches, but that it's competitive in bad ones. And I don't think that the balance team looks at that enough.

And LOL @ Icy. It's not about you playing it. It's just that the idea of Refess suddenly having an amazing meta with all these wonderful cards isn't exactly consistent when everyone else just kept getting nerfed. A game starts to lose its pleasure when instead of winning with whatever you want, you have to play against the balance team itself.
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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby Callonia » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:15 pm

So is AqvasFire2 DG or not?
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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby Icyman2 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:19 pm

Callonia wrote:So is AqvasFire2 DG or not?

What do you think?
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Re: What's up with the lack of complaints about MD Aug/OD sp

Postby Callonia » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:36 pm

Icyman2 wrote:
Callonia wrote:So is AqvasFire2 DG or not?

What do you think?


I think it's DG simply just to err on the side of caution which's why I am not going to speak to this AqvaFire2 anymore. I dislike throwing my head against brick wall, it hurts.
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