Set 12 Design

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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby Kemious » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:36 am

Ah I was waiting for the Primaclone to be brought up. To begin with Primaclone was never a 'Gowen' tech it was a multisphere tech. Remove the Falkow influence from it and Primaclone is impossible is it not? But lets just say we acknowledge that factor let us continue with the conversation

Primaclone had no viable counter for any sphere outside of falkow that could backlash. Now I can say this with certainty because around that time lets count the number of grimbane or grim resistant units each sphere had eh? Before set 7 there were a grand total of 4 units that could effectively grimbane. 2 of which were falkow being fellana and Mage Knight of Regus and the third being Dargon who required a condition of being night. and notice not a single grim immune unit.

Fruit was the single most unreliable counter to this mechanic, for a number of reasons, one you could only effect 2 units and it was fifty/fifty mix up on if fruit would even effect you units before the cyclone. So to have any chance of winning one would be forced to play big file, which I don't believe is healthy for a games growth. But much in the same way your opinion and mine differ i may be wrong.

Pixies were the direct opposite in terms of playing or rather not playing. While primaclone almost always ended with the opponent having thier entire field returned to their hand. I saw more than a couple of pixy games where the opposite play only managed to play a unit with the character and level 4 lock when they were on their last SS. Certainly that has to be healthy for the game environment right?

I will give you that the nerf to Rhino action, Bringers Open and jacks start being changed to an auto probably aren't need anymore and they'd be alright if we changed them back to how they orginally were. Though having a unit that revive itself having natural defense is probably a bad thing. its not like you can't use a dyrad on him or anything as he is now. You also make it sound as if Pixies can't lock players out at all. Its just you can't rob a player of over 6 turns without play.

Each sphere has had its share of Nerf cards when things were getting bad for them, or does nobody remember the Laps Kaldro nerfs/ Miffy and Veraalt? How about Ruuca or Serpent and elite fencer?

But I can't see an excuse for why a level 5 unit or higher should be returned as an SS for no negative sp penalty when all other SS have that same vice. Returns all come with a trade off so why should that be an exception? Just because gowen has the easiest access to it doesn't make it valid. If said by privy of Refess having sunbeam cage that the strategist SS should have no -1 sp cost or all the agi based one didn't need to have that same sp cost reduction.

I have admitted multiple time gowen has been left a bit behind but you make it sound like they've been the only ones to get Lemons. There have been less then useful cards in all sphere introduced. The honest truth is they have viable files just not steamrollers like they use
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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby DeeGee » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:00 am

Primclone: you could counter by playing Primrose or miracle fruit the turn you expected EXprim, and you pretty much knew she was coming, because it was a Gowen/Falkow file with an empty field.

For Refess, I've stated before (and let me state it again): the EXLap nerf was wrong. The Kaldrao nerf was good because he made resting+DF snowballing auto-win against anything attack dependent aside from perhaps EX Yuni+Rhino.

And as for pixies locking out entire files, Kemious, that only happened if someone was playing a file dependent on level 4+ characters, so that archer and mage locked them. And if they play such a file today, they'll lose just as hard because they'll get chainlocked into the abyss by archer and mage end on end. The problem is that pixies got their on-field presences nerfed as well, namely the Mitz nerf, the sin nerf (why can we no longer pick off ruby eater or EX Riza if we have 4 pixies on the field?), and the dual-wielder nerf (yay let's hit a 0 SP reviving refugee citizens instead of the guardian and be down 1 SP!) which was uncalled for. The entire point of pixies was that they were a counterplay file. If you knew what it is your opponent was playing, you were supposed to be able to hard-counter it. No questions asked. It was the one file that could beat any file in the game, and could lose to any file in the game, depending on the player's foresight. Now? Throw enough damage SSs at pixies and they fold like a bad hand. Or simply use enough LP and wait for the lock to run out and stomp all over them with your star dragon/volcano wyvern/deep squid/lightning wyvern/Lawt doesn't really have a good nonchar big.

As for Falkow: can we please revert the nerfs on Elite Fencer and Ruuca? Give elite her 60 HP back and Ruuca her chaining? We have the counters now. Serpent I'd more than gladly welcome back to 80 HP, since I haven't seen a tier 1 serpent file in forever.

Now as for RFA, as I said, I'm perfectly fine with it having an SP cost if you return a level 5 unit. What I'm not fine with is that it costs you SP against a rush file. Think about it--if you're playing an off-sphere color and you use one RFA SS. You put 1 into gowen, spend 1 SP playing the fruit, and then lose 1 SP from the RFA next turn--already, that's the price of a return grim if you return a level 3--but whoops, you also spent an SS, and for what, when you could have played a return? See what I'm saying? By all means, I think it's absolutely fair to get the -1 SP if you return something like a Phoenix chick. But -1 SP next turn if you return a miracle fruited Oeste? Really? And also, the set 6 return SSs suck. The only removal SSs that got any decent traction were the engage SSs because of Shelby, sin SSs because you only had to sacrifice a level 1 (or you were doing it wrong), and RFA because it was Gowen's SS. To say "let's all put them on par with Raste/Miandela/Metia and their counterparts" is saying "let's just remove them from the game altogether". Removal is a part of the game because large units that can shrug off 40 damage SSs are part of the game. That's the only reason they exist. They stink vs. rush, but the costs get imposed vs. rush anyway. Why?

Oh, as for Miffy/Verlaat, they really didn't get nerfed. Not really. It isn't that mid refess really got nerf-hammered. It's that buncles was a natural predator to it thanks to amethyst buncle (DF=0 on front row = bye bye guardian/verlaat shenanigans=plow through the whole field). Mid refess just was boring to play to begin with, and my hypothesis is that people looked for any excuse not to play that file.

Kemious, yeah, there have been nerfs that have gone around, but they've mainly been to Falkow and Gowen, while Refess lost all of one meta (granted, it was supposed to have been its signature meta) but in turn gained 4 (Mid refess, Ref warriors, buncles, SKs have all become complete). Lawtia's always been solid, albeit the nerf to MD augment was absolutely brutal (and IMO uncalled for--overdose was the problem the whole time, will never be used on any other augment, and will always be used on doll, Zu, and Shvara).

I say revert a whole bunch of those changes.
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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby Callonia » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:18 am

DG, start a new thread because you're derailing this thread.

Or better yet, why haven't rom banned u yet.

Anwyays.

Why did Heavy Folrart Defender lose 10 atk and not gain 5 def xD Would've been nice to counter for 30 instead of 20.

Veteran Shrine Knight looks nice. Probably has the first valuable shield breaker because it will strike units with def instead of units with 0 def.

And it seems like Brothers in Arms got better from jp version.

And the new millia surprises me, She basically can blitzkrieg the enemy field repeatedly until you run out of sp. Oh GMB WHY YOU HAVE TO BE GONE AND BURIED! XD

Grand Duke's shock trooper sorta makes me tempted to try multisphering refess/lawtia at least once for playin gwith aivualt and him and an perhaps refess knight.

I'm surprised Three Headed Dragon got buffed, in jp, he was a hit or a miss while in usa that got changed into reliable damage output at minimum 20 dmg.

And why aren't there any drawbacks on sweet dreams like inspiration have?

I have to say I am amused by elgandi's I break the rules trait xD

And, Two sided blessings --- Does it buff both refess and lawtia units or just units that is refess/lawtia?


Then i'm not sure what I think about crest blitz swordwoman, after all, I still have memories of pixy dual wielder oneshotting an early folrart guardian and anything i could summon. And pixy dualwielder still can do it.
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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby CainHyde » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:34 am

Romdeau wrote:As some of you are aware, I've been working as an Apocoplay employee as an assistant game designer for the past month or so. My most important project was helping the oversight and design of Set 12. It was partially my responsibility to edit, organize, and playtest to insure it met quality standards. A lot of cards were changed from their original japanese versions for a variety of reasons. Many ideas were exchanged and pooled together to create the final product, which is what you see available now.

I'm opening up this thread to allow discussion between the test team and general public. Depending on interest, I may do this again in the future. If other testers would like to participate in this thread, I encourage them to do so. I reserve the right to ignore any questions I feel like and so do other testers. If this turns into a flamefest of any sort I will take appropriate action, including locking the thread.

Ask away.


So DG please create your QQ is good Gowen thread or nerf Refess thread somewhere else.

Pixie is still good, it's just it can't win against every non-rush file with both of your eyes closed anymore.
And pre-nerf Failcer and Ruuca? Go commit suicide in aokigahara forest.
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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby LDEvolution » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:50 am

DeeGee wrote:As for Falkow: can we please revert the nerfs on Elite Fencer and Ruuca? Give elite her 60 HP back and Ruuca her chaining? We have the counters now. Serpent I'd more than gladly welcome back to 80 HP, since I haven't seen a tier 1 serpent file in forever.

Lol, because a LV3 unit with 60HP, 30AT and can perma drop any AG4 or higher unit on your opponents is very balanced. They should never ever be buffed back to their original form unless every other sphere gets buffs to match it.

Elite Fencer shouldn't even allow you to chose which unit loses AGI in the first place, it should have always been random and if it gets returned to normal then buff every other LV3 unit in all spheres by 20 extra HP.
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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby Muklas » Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:04 am

So when can I and a dozen of other people expect to recycle our buncles?
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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby Romdeau » Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:09 am

Muklas wrote:So when can I and a dozen of other people expect to recycle our buncles?

Tomorrow.
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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby Muklas » Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:10 am

Thanks for the fast response, mate.
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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby Anima13 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:22 am

LDEvolution wrote:
DeeGee wrote:As for Falkow: can we please revert the nerfs on Elite Fencer and Ruuca? Give elite her 60 HP back and Ruuca her chaining? We have the counters now. Serpent I'd more than gladly welcome back to 80 HP, since I haven't seen a tier 1 serpent file in forever.


Elite Fencer shouldn't even allow you to chose which unit loses AGI in the first place, it should have always been random and if it gets returned to normal then buff every other LV3 unit in all spheres by 20 extra HP.



Exuse me mister, but in case you didnt got that, pinpoint (dmg and control)is a typical falkow utility. IT belongs there and for a very good reason. Falkow has a general wekness in attack power until it creates an excess of resources compared to his opponents in other spheres. The only way it can survive till then is spending the few attack/control power you posses efficient (=pinpoint).

I feel the community has some serious issues to understand falkow damage dealers when they just start to compare them to other units in other spehres. Yes falkow posses very good damage dealers. But unlike in gowen they are not capable to summon that dmgpower ruight from the start, but require resources invested first.

Urgant. requires 6 sphere levels in lawtia to have its kick in skill, while taking care that his auto (that is a resource geneerator) constantly drain your current floating sp, thus limiting the resources you could invest your field. To set up urgant you require ewither a good planned stalling to have your urgant be alive on the field over more turns, to enable that auto to kick in or a very fast trade of other resources to get the suruplus of resources early so you can use him.

Ryu an other good damage dealer requires being alive over a turn together with another lvl3 unit that can give hima status effect. baloma route: 2 field positions, 7 sp on the field unharmed over 2 turns, 3 extra spherelevels in gowen, Ex memraid route: same just without gowen levels (note it cripples a good skills attack power by not having invested in gowen sphere levels.)

bog: bogs trai make him mostly the last card set in game after that you basically loose any control over the game and the reacting potential of yours gets to 0 (which is a huge issue considering the returns, removals existing in game). Due to this you cannot play him alone. He requires a field.

Magic greadsword soldier: requires sphere levels to boost his attack power. This is actually very intresting cause i can make real calculations which this unit, about the surplus i need with my wk. Note all the field positions need to be open not closed at the time
To kill a jade carbuncle: I require hitting first (agi maniputlation),and either
a 3 sp on field and 3 extra sp in sl (sl6, mgs killing) or
b 6 sp on filed and twol field positions/field position advantage

To kill a guardian the best case is whith mgs:
I require an attack power of 80= 5 sp extra invested in sphere levels in addition of the 3 i usually need for putting out a lvl3

To kill an OPlate:
agimanipulation (he is fast)
+ either
a, a lucky agi roll, 6 sp on filed with 2 field positions and 3 sp extra spent in sl
b 9sp on field with 3 field positions

You need to understand that when you put a jade on the field measured to my attackpower have 3 sp more power worth on the field.

This is absolutly normal for refess to have a high defence power. In the past refess had to build up field and buff up the filed/ make the field attackpower finally start to count while your opponent cant break through the defence. But when a high defence unit is capable to summon serious dmg power without field requirement, it becomes a gowen unit: jade is for me first turn a gowen unit.
same reason I could imagine gon was slightly irritated first when seen crest blitz swordman as it doesnt require any serious resource investment/field requirement, just survival to constantly raise attackpower in a significalnt manner. (yet one could argue that his survivability and agi makes up for this).

Standalone allround units become overpowered in field oriented decks. The same reason why ruuca emana had to be nerfed: they were standalone gowen units in a field oriented sphere that usually has to fight for field and sp advantage. So ok gowen units in falkow are too strong I thought. If a sphere get units which have the qualities of the sphere they are weak to combined with their own, those units even out the usual weakness of the sphere.
But hey, now I see the same in refess with the new ex...
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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby Peralisc9001 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:36 am

Romdeau wrote:
Muklas wrote:So when can I and a dozen of other people expect to recycle our buncles?

Tomorrow.

How come you don't wait few weeks to see first how things change according to new meta and such.

This is also bad for free low spenders since the most easy to pinpoint cheap stuff is getting nerfed and what's worst is the fact that the new set might keep them on a leash. :/
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