Set 12 Design

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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby DeeGee » Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:17 pm

Angelspawns, you don't hear about the frustration of playing vs. Dion control because it requires a Bulegrid which nobody has access to short of shelling out hundreds of dollars for one SS, the fact that the Dion control file is an exercise in masochism when it comes to enjoyment, and that the file depends on a bunch of individually extremely weak cards. Furthermore, this is a unit based game, especially as evidenced by all of the nerfs to the removal SSs over time (petrification nerfed, RFA -1 SP next turn, debate on nerfing Miandela/Astaforse return agi 3 disengage because of Oeste despite that still missing agi 1 and 5 units), and as for Gaiessoul splash, just play a level 3 rush. Buncles absolutely beats the crap out of any gaiessoul splash file. In fact buncles beats the crap out of anything these days aside from SKs and any Falkow-mechanics-out-the-wazoo file.

Now as for set 12 design, it's about time Duchies became a legitimate tribe. However, beyond that, I really don't see much of anything. I suppose Ibert is an attempt at pushing Mid-falkow. Ariete is absolutely catastrophically bad in design. If she's supposed to help grimcount files, why does she lock grims for five turns? Is a guaranteed 2->3 for Falkow really that strong? The only time she's really better than Catherina is against Lawtia, but considering how much the usual shade+gafc shenanigans can wreck Falkow, was Ariete created just to give a sadistic choice?

As for Gowen, the merc nation sniper had 5 range in the JP version. What is it with the testing team and the refusal to allow Gowen to have anything good ranged attacker? It used to have Jack. Then he lost his ability to pick off high agi units and hit supports while hiding behind BKR. Heierrat sniper was supposed to be this amazing hit-anything-from-anywhere unit. Not so much anymore. JP's Yuni had Mureria's stats prior to rankup, with a close that could save her life in a critical situation. Oops, not anymore. Benny Mac seems to be the only good thing Gowen got going for it in this new set, but even with him, the entire sphere plays the same exact way it's played for the past 11 sets, and while Lawtia, Falkow, and especially Refess have been getting tech options out the wazoo from set 6 onwards (death's embrace, bitter destiny, deathmaker, new Emana, exmerm, withdrawal strategy, new verlaat, fairy blessing, Catira, etc...), Gowen is still the sphere of "hit you even harder!", which Lawtia's Crest tribe now has firmly in hand. The little wandering samurai used to be able to cem any engaged unit. He was supposed to be Gowen's tech. Oops. Not anymore.

Where is the tech that Gowen was supposed to be getting for the past however many sets? Why isn't it here yet? The new grims are trash. Roar of anger: oh look, in order to do anything with this grim, I need to sacrifice half my field. Dragon fire: might as well be a Refess grim because that's the only sphere that has a remote chance in hell of fielding more than one dragon at a time. Beltorat was supposed to be the tribe of summoning dragons. When's the last time you saw a good Belt file actually summon a dragon? And this new one? Epitome of mediocrity. If you have it used against you, at some point, it will do exactly the worst thing and cost you the game. If you use it, more often than not, it'll do something you don't need it to.

As for Refess, has One True God/Unknown been tested if successfully summoned in Eternal Morning?

In any case, I feel that this is now a three-sphere game, with Gowen being a case of "why should I play a sphere that's like all the others but without the tech?".
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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby angolmois » Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:20 pm

Cards I want 3x of real badly:

Moonlight Princess / Eskatia - Finally I can revive my awesome Nightmare/SP drain file after Stronghold of Chaos got nerfed.
War Torn Dragonrider / Millia - She's going into my Big Lawtia file. I would take out either Afel or Joe for her.
Grand Duke's Shock Trooper - The best Crest unit in this set IMO.
Mercenary Princess / Yuni - I don't have a Merc Nation file, perhaps I can use her in BKR & friends. Not high on my wanted list though.
Gun God / Ben MacLachlan - Going into my Big Red file.
Explosive Wyvern - Same as above
Flying Sorcerer of Regus - Another useful grim in the form of a unit. Plus she's reusable if she doesn't die!
Guide of Causality / Fellana - I just love my bikini babes. Oh and I would like to try out their combo.
Keeper of Causality / Sumer - Same as above

Now how do I get these cards in the cheapest possible way...
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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby Ropey » Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:22 pm

I got two dragons on with ease. Keeping em on now that's a different matter.
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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby Khiruki » Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:41 pm

I've gotten a Full set of Noze and like 20 Iberts and Mirelias. I wanted Zagar and Messaria. , _ , I have strange luck.

Anyways, tried out Grimless WK. Ibert utterly destroyed a couple Mid Refess files by being fast as balls and smashing for huge damage. Tried out Noze Mid Blue. Had a close game v. Mid Lawtia. She's... interesting. She can't solo a massive field of Carbuncles, but she can keep down the enemy population through returns and double attacks. Her Black Wind Grimoire is also good for crowd control. Set her up after holding field with Giant Squid and she does a lot of damage.
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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby GonFreeces31 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:55 pm

I'm not sure what kind of tests you guys did but Mirelia, Ariete, Sumer & Fellana look really bad. Kinda disapointed cause those cards have art I like and I would have considered spending on this set if they looked fun/worth using. Sumer and Fellana you guys totally dropped the ball on. Two supporty units that engage and lower sphere levels? Not sure what Mirelia is supposed to be doing either. Damage has never been an issue in grim count files, she doesn't do anything about weaknesses of the file or adds anything unique to grim count files that you really need. She looks like just a "win more" card.

A lot of other stuff looks really good tho. Like Dilate & Ben. Crest is still reliant on using hell smoke or that miku card (the blitz girl is not a free reviver) and you also still need a bunch of cards from other sets to use the new crest cards, but overall they look ok.
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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby Romdeau » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:28 pm

OK so friendly reminder-this thread is about asking specific questions about what we did and why-not a place to put your wishlist or whatever you think is cute. Please keep it relevant.

So angelspawns, let me tell you a secret. I do not enjoy TGC. I do not enjoy using them or playing them. I think they are a poorly designed tribal that needs re-building from the ground up. When this manipulator priest thing came out, I just kinda sidelined him and ignored him, in favor of focusing on other cards. In other words, I left that card to Logress to handle and I did not become involved with it. That's the honest truth there.

Ropey, while Crest now has enormous damage potential they have very little tech or control asides from fancier ways of dealing damage-I think this is a largely exploitable weakness. The only tanky units they have are level 4. Their average hp allows them to be taken out by souls, big damage files, and generally faster units (agi 4+). Refess has some methods of surviving their huge damage, but I admit I feel it's a bit of a struggle-you need certain rares and support cards to be able to handle it.
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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby DeeGee » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:30 pm

Agree with Gon on Ariete. What exactly was the thought process behind her open?
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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby Romdeau » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:32 pm

DeeGee wrote:Agree with Gon on Ariete. What exactly was the thought process behind her open?

An alternative to catherina open if you chose while being unshadeable-but of course such a wonderful open doesn't come without a price, so you'll need a way to figure out how to get those grimoires back if you want to use them.

In case you weren't aware, grimoires retrieved with her action skills become immediately available to use-dodging the lock attached to her open. So I think you should be able to get 1 grimoire back at least, if not both.
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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby GonFreeces31 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:41 pm

Well what was the thought process behind Sumer and Fellana? They engage units and drain sphere levels. It seems like it would create awkward scenarios where you can't really close enemy units but neither of you can actually play your own units and you just sit around looking at each other awkwardly. Like what's supposed to be fun or special about these units? I mean the thread is about set 12 design, this question is on topic isn't it?
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Re: Set 12 Design

Postby Khiruki » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:41 pm

Ah shoot. Sorry. Forgot my actual questions.

Veteran Shrine Knight- I assume somebody really dislikes Rasam souls?

Lapierre- Is that heal 10 HP close skill going to be a more common thing?

Torte- I understand that her old level up skills were kinda redundant with Healer Pixy, but she really removes one of the Pixy file's greatest weaknesses to defense. Do ya think that's a bit much, or did pixies really need that help?

Flying Sorcerer of Regus- I really like her. Does well in conjunction with Ibert to set up columns for murder. On that note, with Gowen having small presence in Folrart, Ibert is pretty free to roll around with his 1SP pinpoint lancer. Not really a question, just a vague concern.

Dilate- How exactly does his trait work? Say he's on the field with Jerry or somebody, and you play Song of Hero on Jerry. Jerry gets Double AT, Dilate gets Double AT. What if Dilate is alone on field? Does he get both the MaxHP bonus and the AT buff, or does Song of the Hero just whiff out?
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