Lack of Counter Play

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Lack of Counter Play

Postby GonFreeces31 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:11 am

There is one thing that I've grown to really dislike about Alteil and that is the lack of counter play. What I mean by this is that too many matches feel predetermined and it does not feel like you have tactics available to you to combat the opponent. I do not mean to imply that there are not objectively better or worse decisions that you can make, but that at high levels of play many matchups are completely predetermined.

This is one of the reasons I sort of gave this game up and probably the biggest reason I'm not interested in picking it back up. There are just so many matchups or souls that make for completely unbalanced matches that just do not seem fun. For example all the people who use crap like Afeemina SS or go for the vonderam SS cyclone combo. What fun is there when your level 3 unit gets sent to the cemetery directly from a soul skill? The second that soul hits unless the other person is a complete moron you are almost guaranteed to win. Then that vondaclone nonsense. That's just an inconsistent gimic. Sure when it hits it's GG but it won't hit every game. How is that a fun mechanic? You see that soul and you know you lost and that there is nothing you can do about it. Then there is the ridiculous DEF stacking nonsense people try. 30/30s, Grebados souls, that mage knight SS that adds absurd defense. Those souls are pretty much the most annoying thing in the world and guarantee victory, or they are useless. Once again, how is this fun? It's like one side tries a strategy - stack absurd DEF, and what can the opponent do? Not all files have ways to deal with things like ridiculous defense and when that soul hits the match is pretty much over. Then there are those soul skills that give +3SP. Those soul skills pretty much guarantee victory over players using standard 40/1 leading soul skills. Like if the opponent gets a 2SP lead because they used PoM and you used asuet well you pretty much lost the game already. Not on the merits of decisions you made in game, but on preselected soul skills. Then of course there is the infamous fierte. That sure creates fun matches! If you're trying to play any multisphere file you pretty much instantly lose verse a fierte soul.

Now let's look at some match ups. Sure, there are some that are 50/50. A lot of gowen/falkow or gowen/lawtia tend to be 50/50 matchups. But aside from them there are so many 10/0 or 8/2 matchups that really aren't fun at all. For example a well played WK file generally beats a well played ex lap file almost every time assuming perfect play. But then that same WK file loses almost every time to any big file. Or how WK loses every single time to undead. And before anyone comes up with an anecdotal story about one time they played undead and lost to WK, you have completely suck or get horribly outplayed to lose that matchup. If we look at weenie rushes like pixies or EN, those two decks either completely rofl stomp, or get crushed. There isn't that much inbetween.

Sorry this got a little ranty. I just wanted to point out one thing I think is a real problem in this game.
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Re: Lack of Counter Play

Postby Icyglare » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:22 am

yea but I'm not quite sure what you could want to fix things like that. I just have to make files that can counter whatever might come up usually.
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Re: Lack of Counter Play

Postby gadu » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:30 am

One thing I want to add is that the only counters available to something only work in one sphere and are often insufficient counters.

For example, Song can cover your unit from being sent to cemetary, but if you have two mids on the field, then what's the point? You still get sent to the cemetary.

Or how about when I play Shear Winds with a lawt file... I spent 4 SP to prevent my unit from getting SS returned. I save myself field presence, but still got SP drained and used up file space. And you still have to make sure that your timing is perfect or else you're even more screwed.

The rock-paper-scissors of Alteil turns me off the game too.
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Re: Lack of Counter Play

Postby GonFreeces31 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:35 am

True there are some example where it exists. Sheer winds is a good example. Shade is a unit that creates lots of counter play. To some extent your unit order is counter play in a sense. It's just overall there are so many games where it's like, oh welp you're playing paper and I'm rock I guess I lose.
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Re: Lack of Counter Play

Postby hexagram » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:49 am

Just played a match where the opponent counter played me very well but still lost due to being extremely unlucky. Opponent backlashed key cards as we were both falkow. He played that lvl one which lets you see 10 cards which helped him.

It was because I was extremely lucky thanks to the alteil range.
.
my levi removes his sky staff sorceross 3 times in a row instead of itself I think.

Also later in that game both his exploder wizard soul skills hit the same unit 4 times out of a field of 2 and hit the same unit 3/4 times in a field of 3/4.

Instead of sheerwinds that new lvl1 grim sweet dreams is a better option especially in non-falkrow files.

faerie blessing is a great counter against the engage mechanic and has helped me win games in mid reffuss vs stuff like dion or sea serpent files or files that use rasam. Usually I guess right against engage ss plus even if it does not work if has a great secondary effect.

That Ruin Explorer / Russell has the makings of a great counter card.

All above cards listed were set 11 onwards so I think they are trying to solve this.

I agree a lot of matches will be one sided. That is what the quit button is for. You do not really lose anything from quitting. Then again from personal experience I have lost count of the number of games I have won where at one point or another I was tempted to quit. Playing a lenghty loss to end loses time but can be fun but you do not gain too much from winning either. Maybe 2 gran and 15+exp.
Last edited by hexagram on Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Lack of Counter Play

Postby Callonia » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:54 am

My counter against return spam is to spam lvl 4s, even then, its not a guaranteed win xD

I don't see any autowins when i'm playing solar kingdom. Never.

I think other spheres is way too powerful. Drop a lvl 1 and enjoy 50 base attack that can do 100 damage for 2 sp.

My first thought is always, is he running an broken deck that gives autowins or not? Usually fight few turns to determine the outcome. If I confirm that he's running an autowin deck i just give up and go search for next duel. Most of the times the outcome is clear by turn 5 or so. Its rare that outcome isn't clear which makes me fight on.
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Re: Lack of Counter Play

Postby hexagram » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:11 am

I really think miracle fruit needs to be changed to encourage more counter play.

see below same can be applied to other removal grims - below return means all removal grims-or just put falkrow removal grims

hexagram wrote:I think counter play to return

miracle fruit should give back 1sp

something like conditional open return has activated this turn.

So if it goes after return you get back your 1 sp invested in grim

But it it goes before return it is the same -opponent return misfires/wastes for 3sp and you lose the normal 1sp for playing miracle fruit.

Even add another prior conditional open gowen lvl equals 1 -reduce gowen lvl by 1 get 2sp if return activated this turn to have a similar affect but to encorage use outside of gowen files more. Also make it so the secon conditional does not work in this case and that the main open of miracle fruit always works.

Maybe a bit too complicated if so just have first conditional give back 1sp ifreturn has activated this turn on top of normal effect


from suggestion regarding a change in return mechanic

They can easily encourage the use of counter play cards by changing cards or making new cards usually grims like the many lvl 1 counter grims by letting them refund sp like sweet dreams or giving them multiple effects like faerie blessing
Last edited by hexagram on Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Also new guys Worthings starter replays Remember use starter switcher at lvl10 to get all 4 starters

free player till level 190. If I can do it so can you.
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Re: Lack of Counter Play

Postby hexagram » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:22 am

I would argue that winning a game is not so clear cut all the time as there are many factors like agility roles,random attack, unit placement that can make a big difference. Also since we are human mistakes can and will always happen I still character backlassh my self and see others do the same an unbelievably embarassing amount of times. Also since every move is important cetain mistakes can cost you the game or disadvantage yourself atleast. Although you can come back.

Often when losing you can take extra risks. Let units die to activate ss... Which can be high risk high reward . If it doesn't pull off too bad you would have lost anyway.

The optimal move is also not always clear as you don't really know each others soul skills and the exact files.

I totally agree with your point. There are lots of imbalance cards particularly removal/return soul skills come to mind sometimes being almost unavoidable e.g. lvl2 lvl 1 soul return pair. Dion/mystere spending 2sp to return lvl 6 + with no refund of sp... Thing is people usually play the stongest files they can so abuse the strongest most op stuff.
They should reward losing more e.g. if opponent is on 1lp too you get equivalent fm /exp/weekly gran bonus/to winning


gon maybe reread above posts as I tend to add stuff to them
Last edited by hexagram on Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Also new guys Worthings starter replays Remember use starter switcher at lvl10 to get all 4 starters

free player till level 190. If I can do it so can you.
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Re: Lack of Counter Play

Postby GonFreeces31 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:25 am

The problem isn't return it's solar kingdoms lack of counters for it. Gowen and Lawtia go 50/50 or even have advantages verse most standard falkow return files.

I should have predicted this thread would turn into a solar kingdom QQ thread about counters and return...
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Re: Lack of Counter Play

Postby gadu » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:36 am

Backlash is one of my favorite rules of Alteil and best counterplay it has. Though it's rare, it makes matches so much more fun because you feel like you have a lot more control to actually counter something rather than the usual predetermined factors deciding the match.
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