Request: Balance Team Defends Errata

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Re: Request: Balance Team Defends Errata

Postby Aoi » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:55 am

Actually right now if Folfenac dies you lose 2 lawtia no matter what, with or without something marked dying with it.
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Re: Request: Balance Team Defends Errata

Postby GonFreeces31 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:35 pm

In the past I defended a lot of the more unpopular errata decisions. People started to hate me because of it. Its funny now to be on the other side of the table. Well, one legit question for you rom is what changes are you most happy about and which ones are you most frustrated with in hindsight?
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Re: Request: Balance Team Defends Errata

Postby hexagram » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:40 pm

I think the changes are fine more or less and players need to stop making a big deal about them
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Re: Request: Balance Team Defends Errata

Postby angelspawns » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:57 pm

I think i fundamentally disagree with Alteils view on errata. Small buffs that don't change anything for that cards usage in Folrart been a waste of time imo. I see the errata as an opportunity to breath new life into neglected cards and open up more viable files/options to change the stale meta.
This is not what only i but everybody is constantly hoping for when you touch their unused Folrart Shield Knight rotting away in their collection. When you grant Folrart Lady Monk a second look.
But current errata team isn't looking for expanding ones choices in Folrart. It's trying to turn rubbish into the realm of mediocricy with the minimal and smallest of changes.

You weren't out to make Shield a competitive lvl2. You're not out to make my TGC martials a viable file. You didn't want Orthos to be a dependable tech unit in a viable strategy. You brush things up to go from a rubbish to mediocre choice amongst a large collection of already superior options grinded in Folrart. And you might aswell not have bothered with it since you raise peoples expectations and hopes.

If there ever was a dialogue important enough to make here, it's the one about errata expectations and meaning. The current way doesn't work out well for me. The idea it's easier to apply another small buff then a nerf doesn't suit this game either. At this horribly slow paste nothing gets where it needs to be; the arena, and the meta stays boring for way to long.

FYI, i'm not talking about powercreeping current options. I'm asking for you to look at a card and figure out what's needed for it to fit into a folrart file. You can't just slap +10Atk on FolrartLadyMonk and expect it to be played. You need to read the skills and stats -> look at what TGC Martials are lacking -> CHANGE the card to work for it. Give it HP, give it Rng, let it give a field Agi buff! You need to look at Shield -> establish his function -> make it into a viable lvl2 opening option. Find out what things trouble a lvl2 tank and then decide that it shouldn't keep costing you SP on revive if it has no other function then to get hits. That it could get a (heal?)counter to better stall. It could get grimimmunity to stop getting behind in SP on tidal early game? It could get alot of things to become a better option, but it's unfortunatly not healing 4 more HP on standby.


I can name alot of cards and make many points of improvement about them, but i think the real thing that needs to change and discussed is the attitude Logress, Harvest and Romdeau have towards the goal of an errata and how to accomplish it.
A very nice conclusion would be a 2week~monthly errata taking on just a few cards. This way alot more room is created to actually rework on a concept untill they get it right and try out things.
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Re: Request: Balance Team Defends Errata

Postby gaogaigirl » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:42 pm

Frankly no matter what anyone on the team says OR does someone will still complain or call them incompetent. People working game balance shouldn't have to worry about begin attacked for making a mistake or making a change that someone might not understand. Sadly Logress doesn't have tons of time to post about everything, and Rom is working to alleviate the overload.

Even if the errata fixed everything overnight there would still be some sort of "how could you be this stupid" rage instead of "this might be an issue" or "this might help more". I don't know a thing about game balance and do not pretend to, what I do know about is interpersonal interactions. Think before you speak. There is a person on the other side of your insults and for anyone who has ever been bully or abused (and for a nerd community to forget this is amazing) you know that words carry power. Now this discourse here is embarrassing. While some are constructive other people seem to think that because you are leaving a text message instead of being face to face means you can speak like a poorly reared child. This is not a matter of silencing discourse. Certainly we know how many problems the game has and we are working to fix them, but there is no one panacea for everything.

If you disagree then write up your thoughts in an intelligent manner. Explain the balance issue in question and please make sure you consider every single card combo that could arise from your change, as well as stating the grand improvement your idea will make and why it will be fun. Since this is such an easy task I'm sure many people will contribute to the game balance improvement without adding any shortsighted and or overly bias suggestions.


If anyone feels the needs to air their grievances/suggestions/hopes/dreams/ect with me face to face I'm more then willing to give you my G+ info and we can have a talk. I don't have a ton of free time, as I have work to do on the game and an infant to care for. Since most of the folks on this forum have been with us for a long time I certainly will not write you off as some random naysayers. if needed and possible, I can arrange a group discussion with MysteryMan and Logress but the have even less time then I do.

We have a game to rebuild but it won't happen overnight.
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Re: Request: Balance Team Defends Errata

Postby hexagram » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:53 pm

hear hear

You cannot please everyone.
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Also new guys Worthings starter replays Remember use starter switcher at lvl10 to get all 4 starters

free player till level 190. If I can do it so can you.
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Re: Request: Balance Team Defends Errata

Postby gaogaigirl » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:56 pm

NO, but I can try.
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Re: Request: Balance Team Defends Errata

Postby gadu » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:50 pm

gaogaigirl wrote:There is a person on the other side of your insults


Apparently there is not because several people have respectfully explained in detail their grievances about the errata and they did not receive a single response to date. In addition, those threads were either locked or moved and the balance team went into hiding.

It was not until Gon began humiliating some of the balance team with insightful stories about past errata decisions that finally forced a "fine, I'll answer questions" response from Rom. I would not expect warm and fuzzy conversations after that kind of behavior. Despite that, the "insults" have not been anything to QQ about.

It is said that, "writers need to have tough skin" because their work is often the subject of critique. The same could apply to balancers. Suck it up and be like this guy:

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Re: Request: Balance Team Defends Errata

Postby angelspawns » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:10 pm

If such conversations are possible it would be nice GGG. In past experiences (like in safiria's planning bureau) elaborate ideas and genuin well articulated concerns simply get ignored. There hasn't been a single sign of consideration towards these. People now are more venting their frustrations then actually expecting any actual (ex-)change of views that lead to a productive conversation.

I'm not trying to throwing out unbased slander. My harsh words about errata's are a well based response knowing the viewpoints Romdeau and Harvest shared with us, aswell as the long history of previous errata's its been through.

*edit*
This part:
angelspawns wrote:But current errata team isn't looking for expanding ones choices in Folrart. It's trying to turn rubbish into the realm of mediocricy with the minimal and smallest of changes.

You weren't out to make Shield a competitive lvl2. You're not out to make my TGC martials a viable file. You didn't want Orthos to be a dependable tech unit in a viable strategy. You brush things up to go from a rubbish to mediocre choice amongst a large collection of already superior options grinded in Folrart. And you might aswell not have bothered with it since you raise peoples expectations and hopes.

Is based on this:
harvest4god wrote:Small changes are for the best. More changes can be done that will make them better in the future if need be. But if you overdo it then you have a gamebreaking card.

Romdeau's comments on how Logress doesn't like large changes to cards, and this: http://www.alteil.com/index.php/card-errata (a list of previous errata's on the site, and to clarify: each and every buffed card is in a dire need for another buff)


I'm not calling people incompetent on unbased grounds. You will know why things make me feel the way i do, and i include suggestions how things could turn for the better (to my opinion ofcourse). My tone however is a product of how Alteil has been treating its people; Asking nicely gets you ignored, serious concerns go unadressed, and ideas recieve 0 consideration. Speaking harshly isn't nice, but if it's really hurtful there might be a painful truth behind it that i'm trying to bring across. I'm more then eager to have an intelligent conversation based on respect though... it's about time...
Last edited by angelspawns on Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Request: Balance Team Defends Errata

Postby gaogaigirl » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:10 pm

Angel i have no issue with you. Everything you've stated is in a more then reasonable tone.

More often than not Logress has more than he can handle and has to compromise on many things he rather not and must choose the lesser of two evils. That doesn't make it right but is the case until we're rolling. Most of our past issues steamed from under-staffing and incompetent or greedy managers.

This will all improve, but for the moment it's rough.
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