Good Win/Loss ratio for a balanced game

Everything that doesn't go anywhere else.

Re: Different method of obtaining Gran

Postby luckysvn777 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:57 am

garcia1000 wrote:
Demongod wrote: But tell me, how are we going to attract new players if the paid player community is going to keep making damn sure that they can't even build a single rare-dependent file? And if you can honestly get through me, odds are, you'll have no problem keeping the rest of the player base.


This is a secondary problem; the primary problem is that new players can't even build a commons only file. The only starter deck that you'd even have a remote chance of doing so is Gowen. Surprise, most newbies in Folrart run Gowen decks*, so **** you, Falkow/Lawtia/Refess users!

I can accept that it may be several months before I can build a Fellana deck or a Catherina deck. But is it reasonable to be unable to build a bog wyvern (2-rarity) deck?



*Ok, Lamepierre+guardian, whatever, my point still stands



Yea, i agree with this. New and free players should get easy and early access to all four spheres, and a good variety of cards for all four of them so that they can make 1-2* rarity files relatively quickly... with the mentality that they would then eventually be able to build those rare card files with a bit of time and effort.

Nice thing about Alteil is the 1-2* cards give more than enough power and variety to be enough for the free player to wait to get those rares.
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Re: Different method of obtaining Gran

Postby Ginnazoh » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:54 am

..have you ever played Go in your life?

Opening middle? that is one of the hardest plays to pull off since you have bad field position and you can be attacked from all sides as well as being giving up a side of the board. No respectable Go player would whine about losing to meta game plays if they started middle...

I still think my idea of giving all the starters to every one would solve this issue. If that is not enough, throw in the beginner packs at level 15 like lucky suggested.

Do this retroactively for those who are past level 15 .. and problem solved if the players are smart enough to figure out how to maximize the uses of their cards.

it gives you variety and allows you to make use of most cards..and gives you more cards to recycle for more lotto pull or gran.

But this all depends on well the sales of starter decks and the beginner packs are...in other words, depends if its more profitable for alteil to continue selling it, or give them away for free to draw more players in hope that they eventually decide to pay.

(As my parents taught me to be a good person, one of the requirements of that was to put myself in shoes of the other party, it is called being considerate and called not being selfish. I am sure most people would agree with me.)
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Re: Good Win/Loss ratio for a balanced game

Postby DWildstar » Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:32 am

I know center move is terrible from watching "Hikaru no Go" :lol: anyway, I'm splitting this thread since these posts aren't about the original post about gaining gran via playing NPCs.
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Re: Good Win/Loss ratio for a balanced game

Postby Ginnazoh » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:50 am

fun fact I just watched a level 14 using a modded gowen starter (only additions I noticed where earth dragons and fire arrow grim) beat a level 74's primclones (no athira shin or mirelia, just a primclone + bazgar and other midgowen units)

said level 14 was dueling in folrart with 12 wins 4 losses..
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Re: Good Win/Loss ratio for a balanced game

Postby Demongod » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:01 pm

Sorry, haven't played Go in a long, long, long time (I think I played it once or twice WAAAAAAAY back). So the metagame flub is all mine. But I hope my point of "all good strategy games have their set openings for the first fraction of a game".

Anyhow, Ginnazoh, that must have been a really poorly-executed Primclone then.

As for the Baiken:Anji matchup...ouch. Well, Anji is D-tier for a reason (heh). But consider Sol...his matchups are a lot of 5:5s, some 4.5:5.5, and some 5.5:4.5, maybe a 4:6 or a 6:4 every so often. On a whole, a balanced character.

Also consider Accent Core Eddie, who's one of the best in the game (S-tier), but his matchups are simply a lot of 6:4 or 5.5:4.5.

IMO a game in which there are lots of slightly favorable/unfavorable matchups means that the experience gap counts for far more than a card gap. A game in which you might have 9:1 vs. one deck and 1:9 vs. another means that there are two instances with that deck in which one side, either the opponent or the player, respectively, feels quite frustrated.

And given the nature of economics experiments that have been done in which players would rather take a steady gain but risk a greater loss if only to have a chance to offset a guaranteed lesser loss, it seems that people hate losing more than they like winning. So getting utterly stomped on is probably the worst thing that can happen to a player. However, from personal experience, I have to tell you that the most fun games for me aren't when I blow out the opponent. The kinds of matchups that are fun are, for instance, playing against an EN v. Succubus deck in which I have no grimoires and Dalos hits the table, and I have to use a combination of Volcano Wyvern, Devouring Lizard, and Faytis SS to put him down twice, with barely any cards remaining in my file. In other words, the very close ones that are down to the wire and have plenty of "oh crap oh crap oh crap" moments that leave you an opportunity to deal with them, but only if you play it correctly.

The kinds of games that you can make a gazillion mistakes compared to your opponent and still win are no good. They are frustrating for your opponent, and may become boring for you. Conversely, the kinds of games that you feel you need every last roll of the dice to go your way and perfect play just to have a ghost of a chance winning are no fun, either. Even if you win those, you're only left with a bitter feeling as to how the game designers can allow such known MUs to exist in the first place, and just how young Alteil is.

And as for starter packs, here's the thing...

Why doesn't the Gowen starter come with Salamander Soldier or Assassin for SSs when it has a well-known weakness of things like Guardian? Why doesn't Refess come with things like Volcano Wyverns or other "X damage to all units" SSs so as to mop up agile witches? And so on. In fact, with some of the ideas that others have suggested (retroactively and from now on award beginner's packs to people at level 15, give everyone all the starters, and thus all the beginner's packs at level 15?) would vastly increase deck variety and the ability for many, many decks to cover their weaknesses (know how awesome it'd be if Gowen could use sylph? Oh look, you just played a witch. Gee, I know you're playing sylph next to bounce my critter. So I'm going to play my own sylph and we can backlash while I KO your witch!)

When I see cards like lightning archer (garbage if there ever was), Devouring Lizard instead of Heierrat Revolver Bladesman, and other "there are cards that are almost strictly better and every bit as common that could have been included but aren't" situations, well, it does give you a bitter feeling.
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Re: Different method of obtaining Gran

Postby Peralisc2 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:31 pm

Demongod wrote:Imagine if in warcraft 3, probably the second most popular RTS of all time (second only to another game by the same company, Starcraft), had a rock paper scissors. Know how badly that'd affect the game?

I guess you only play FFA (and think only that goes wrong and think FFA actually matters), so you don't know how much it did affect in the past and still affects it right now in a bad way.

show some courtesy for what? For spending a ton and then feeling entitled to free wins? No thank you.

You can grind for free an EN deck in a year or less, so you should care about what you say either way.

And dude, congratz on beating that newbie EN afterwards.

So far, I'm seeing single cards that hard-counter entire files, I'm seeing "money talks, experience walks", and "you have our sympathies. Tough luck. Those are your worst matchups."

Please shut up. You have no damn idea what you're talking about, you can easy build a free player deck that obliterates EN like a piece of ... in the hot summer sun. It's one of the most terrible match ups you could have with an EN deck and it's against a damn starter. If only you would've tried to learn just a bit more about the game, then you wouldn't have posted such a huge complaint because of one duel.

There are simply hard counters for various strategies and ENOUGH of them are easy to come by, but you don't know that yet since you are focused with complaining.

A game in which there are matchups that are 1:9 or 2:8 is one that needs drastic balancing.

I don't disagree, but they didn't avoid that for such a long time, that now it's better to just keep things this way and move on from here. Just for the sake of avoiding screw-ups.

"do we really expect freebies to have patience as the vets stomp on them"?

Do you complain like this on other sites too or do you complain on alteil only? In case you complain here, i want to know why, is it because you see a low population and you believe they are desperate enough to listen to your arguments.

As for "your opponent chose to spend money, you didn't; live with it and lose", is that honestly something you're willing to say to so many potential new players?

If it pisses them off hard enough, yes, i really would, at least to some of them. Why? Because people always start with OMG HIGH LEVEL or OMG SPENDER, i got those complaints even when i had a level 35 for free grinded account only. And often those complaints were comming from gowens that actually had and still have an advantage against that moded starter. So ya, bring them over and i tell them personally that.

You should understand this isn't a start out even game, even if all players were free. It's just like in an RPG, some players simply came here earlier and leveled and got stronger and better ... etc.


You like to talk about gowen starters and their value in folrart, tell everyone what you know about the other starters and their success rate in folrart. How does that success rate look when compared to gowen's starter? Do you know this? Do you prefer to rather make assumptions about this?
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Alteil is pretty much well balanced. Sometimes you loose and sometimes the enemy wins.
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Re: Good Win/Loss ratio for a balanced game

Postby Ginnazoh » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:39 pm

the starter deck issue has long been brought up and discussed before I even started playing. Its going to be changed, just a matter of when...since right now i'm guessing is mid to late set 5...so set 6 is coming out soon and thus there probably will be better cards for starters then. So I'm pretty sure this would be on their mind when making changes to starter files...do it during set 5 and become a set behind within a few weeks of release? or wait until set 6 gets some play, see the balances and metas then make a starter? These are all things that has to be taken into consideration.
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Re: Good Win/Loss ratio for a balanced game

Postby Nehless » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:32 pm

I saw Go and I lol'd at the middle of the board move. I play Go on gokgs.com :) it's good times.
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Re: Good Win/Loss ratio for a balanced game

Postby Porky » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:51 pm

Not really surprised, another day, another complaint. Seriously if all you're doing is complaining why are you still playing this game.
EN can lose to gowen rush if you knew how to play, which you're lacking both in the cards and experience department. But hey, no one in their right mind would want to provide strategies for whiners. (we used to but theres just too many)

Gist of your argument hard counters, money, boohoo. Every deck has counters, learn to play with what you have, just because you're not packing the right souls is no reason to complain about a deck type. Grind more cards or spend some money if you enjoy this game, what is so wrong with paying for entertainment anyway? Have you grown so accustomed to downloading your movies and games that you think everything should be free?
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Re: Good Win/Loss ratio for a balanced game

Postby Pancakes » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:17 pm

Porky wrote:Not really surprised, another day, another complaint. Seriously if all you're doing is complaining why are you still playing this game.
EN can lose to gowen rush if you knew how to play, which you're lacking both in the cards and experience department. But hey, no one in their right mind would want to provide strategies for whiners. (we used to but theres just too many)

Gist of your argument hard counters, money, boohoo. Every deck has counters, learn to play with what you have, just because you're not packing the right souls is no reason to complain about a deck type. Grind more cards or spend some money if you enjoy this game, what is so wrong with paying for entertainment anyway? Have you grown so accustomed to downloading your movies and games that you think everything should be free?


I just played you. And you're playing lame lycans. As a player who himself owns a ton of 3-4-5 star cards I still find lycans to lame strategy as it requires very little thought and lacks all tact whatsoever.

It's on the same level as primclone as far as how far I respect it. I can completely understand how newbies would hate to to get beat by the strategy. All I had to do was bring lavende and the game would have been very different. But they don't have lavende they barely have anything usually.

I think it's lame for high levels to use strats like that. At least do something you thought of on your own like Mavel and Kazama and LuckySvn777.

I'm just going to ignore you I'm not going to bother to bring lycan counters. Enjoy ur wins.
I can only use Bringer, BKR Jack, and returns cuz I'm a free player. It's my best shot at winning!
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