Cards and Combos that need addressing

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Cards and Combos that need addressing

Postby DanTheTimid » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:12 pm

This thread is just a chance for people to express areas of concern in the game, certain cards or combos that they would like the higher ups to take a look at or if not at least explain why they feel they don't need tweaking.

Cards that I'm told were changed from the Japanese version:

Killing Machine Labeau (soul card) - If you didn't expect to see this here your not playing in any high level room or not following the boards. This card can be beat, it has its weaknesses, but at the end of the day, it still is too powerful. It either needs to be weakened or given some sort of draw back or it is only going to continue to cause players (especially new players who don't have access to some of the cards counters) to leave the game and continue to limit card file options as every deck is forced into running cards purely to defeat Labeau.

Combat Monk (unit)- I'm told this guy used to cost an sp to use his action but had 20 attack instead of 10. I'm not entirely sure what was wrong with that, maybe people didn't like paying sp for what was essentially a gamble at getting a boost. In any case, even with only a 10 base attack, the way he works now half the time your doing 30-40 damage. That much damage might have been fine if he was slower, but at 4 AGI he's almost always taking first action and at 30 hp he can take a hit and live to attack again too! This is pretty ridiculous for a level 2. Oh and did I forget to mention at level 5 Gowen sphere he does 20-50 damage and has 5 AGI. It seems like there's something wrong when a level 2, even not ranked up, can often beat level 3s in one on one fights. I'm fine with Gowen having the best level 2s, this level 2 just seems like a bit much.

Cards I'm not sure if they are the same or not:

Panther Soul/Brave Soldier (Grimoire/Unit) - To put it simply, this combo spells automatic loss for Refess right now. Even if Refess tailor made their deck specifically to counter this combo (in which case they've probably made themselves incapable of beating anyone who doesn't use this combo) they still can't beat it the majority of the time. I get the impression that because of Will-o-Wisp that Refess may have been considered the best clan in the Japanese first set, so maybe there they were able to use their sp advantage to some end to over come this combo, but in the English game will-o-wisp is trash and to my knowledge Refess got no buff to compensate for will-o-wisps downfall. Assuming neither panther soul nor brave soldier was altered from their Japanese form this perhaps could explain why Refess is so ill equipped to deal with the combo now. Whatever the reason though, something needs to be done, many posts have been made on this subject and not one person has been able to figure out a way for Refess to over come the combo. Whether the combo needs to be weakened or Refess needs something strengthened (maybe if a card from a later set helps a copy of it could be given away as a special summer gift?) something has to be done or there simply won't be a reason to run Refess right now knowing full well that if you run into anyone with 3 copies of these cards in their deck your odds of victory are slim to none.

Ok so those are the main issues I've run into but I've heard people complain about other things. What are some of the cards or combos that you feel are too good and why? Or maybe you just want to agree with or disagree with mine, feel free to post about that (especially if its the panther soul/brave soldier combo issue cause I would be BEYOND happy if some one actually had a viable counter for refess)
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Re: Cards and Combos that need addressing

Postby Sarkath » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:49 pm

Common situations:
You actually hit the spot with your description of Le Bleau and Combat Monk. Every point that you described of these two, is exactly how I subconsenciously treated these two cards.

I haven't faced the others, but I believe my words would be similar to those of others.

Zombie Lord/LeBleau combo:
I could say that Zombie Lord with LeBleau sounds to be devastating against many players. But I have never faced this deck so I can't give any information, except that the unit can deal 100 damage within range for one sp, and revive for 2 sp, and add one high or two le bleau buff. Might be kinda stronger than supposed, according to what others say. It would rip through most front line defenses, and even if you did beat it, it would leave you with a high cost.

I've always wanted to fight against a Zombie Lord to confirm this.

Refess:
I find that Will o wisp is trash, except for a potential candidate as a Soul Card in some interesting deck. Refess starter deck could really need a second look, since it seems weaker than the other decks. I don't know if this is just a perspective from a Lawtia player, don't value my words with much. I have not a lot of experience with playing Refess, only against.
Sarkath out. :ugeek:
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Re: Cards and Combos that need addressing

Postby Phades » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:00 pm

DanTheTimid wrote:Combat Monk (unit)- I'm told this guy used to cost an sp to use his action but had 20 attack instead of 10. I'm not entirely sure what was wrong with that, maybe people didn't like paying sp for what was essentially a gamble at getting a boost. In any case, even with only a 10 base attack, the way he works now half the time your doing 30-40 damage. That much damage might have been fine if he was slower, but at 4 AGI he's almost always taking first action and at 30 hp he can take a hit and live to attack again too! This is pretty ridiculous for a level 2. Oh and did I forget to mention at level 5 Gowen sphere he does 20-50 damage and has 5 AGI. It seems like there's something wrong when a level 2, even not ranked up, can often beat level 3s in one on one fights. I'm fine with Gowen having the best level 2s, this level 2 just seems like a bit much.

Instead of paying that SP for the bonus, gowen can simply magic weapon the unit to create a wrecking ball out of him. 40-70 damage at 5agl is what i normally see him as. Not a whole lot stands up to that really.

Another card that should be added to this discussion is Azure Dragon - East / Vordore. The acutal trait ability when laid down basically ensures victory to the already fast and moderate to heavy hitting valkow. If he is allowed to have SP and has units on the table, it is basically game over unless le bau buffed something beyond feasable striking range. This card should be at least slightly revised to make it more of a come back card, by allowing the atk to be enhanced by the number of enemies, instead of the number of friendly units on the table.
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Re: Cards and Combos that need addressing

Postby Gigantorus » Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:09 pm

Its not just Refess that can't deal with Brave Soldier/Panther Soul combo. I mean seriously, what was thought process behind having a 50HP 60DMG 4Agility unit that can wipe out the front line before they act for such a cheap SP price? And to top it off, he is supported with other high damaging fast units and the best direct damage grimoire cards. Gowen opening is simply unbeatable with Brave Soldier/Panther Soul mixed in.
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Re: Cards and Combos that need addressing

Postby Grain » Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:26 pm

Spell Lock needs to be changed into something useful.
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Re: Cards and Combos that need addressing

Postby DanTheTimid » Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:41 pm

Grain wrote:Spell Lock needs to be changed into something useful.


Its a case of a card being under powered instead of over powered but actually that is one I forgot about, that's definitely something I'd like to see addressed.

And about the combo being impossible for any clan to face... well I was only falkow during pre-beta so almost all of my experience is Refess. As such, I feel they're the only clan I know so well that I can truly say with both knowledge and personal experience that the combo is nigh impossible to overcome. That said, I could see the combo being at least tough for the other clans as well, but it seems purely from looking at cards that I can find a few more cards in each of the other clans that can atleast help against the combo, while refess really doesn't have a single card capable of dealing with it.
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Re: Cards and Combos that need addressing

Postby EvilGenius » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:37 pm

Refess is just too slow to keep up with Gowan. Starter vs Starter, any decent Gowan player can overpower any defense a Refess player can put up.

Let's look at the basic starter: Combat Monk vs Blessed Acolyte. Both are level 2's, but Combat Monk is clearly the better. Round 2, Refess has 2 options: Cure or KP/BCP.
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Re: Cards and Combos that need addressing

Postby angelatheist » Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:28 am

[card=20]Will o' the Wisp[/card] is indeed a pretty horrible card now and I would never use its soul ability in a deck since it will often do nothing for you.
Yes [card=30]Lebau[/card] is completely overpowered and I have a lawtia deck. Against a good player my only chance of winning is usually to get leabau onto a creature and hope they can't deal with it before I kill them. Lebau is a card that can turn a completely lost game into an instant victory for any deck that you can put it in. My suggestion would be to make it target a random friendly unit to make it somewhat more reasonable.
I don't think that [card=79]Azure Dragon[/card] is overpowered since it basically requires at least 3 units with high agility and Azure Dragon with the highest agility and at least one sp. If you have all these conditions already then you already have a very strong board position and Azure Dragon just makes that position stronger. However a good player they can keep the Falkow player from getting lots of units out and its fairly easy not to place units in the last row too. And as level 4 card Azure Dragon is pretty poor on its own.
I think the [card=59]brave soldier[/card]/[card=56]panther soul[/card] combo is possible to beat once for any deck, maybe twice, but if you have to spend the resources necessary to beat it all three times the Gowen player has probably reached a point that is impossible for the opponent to recover since they'll probably be up against three other units with 4 agility out and enough sp for a fire tornado. This is mainly because the combo only costs 2 sp to maintain. As for combat monk right now, I don't even know why there is an attack button since it seems like it will virtually always be strictly worse than the triple attack. My biggest problem with it is, unlike other problem cards, it requires no planning ahead to pull off, anyone with the right cards can do it easily turn 2 where the opponent has no way of stopping it.
As for underpowered cards i think the worst offenders are currently [card=20]Will o' the Wisp[/card], [card=81]Spell lock[/card], [card=98]Flying[/card] and [card=45]Girl Spectre[/card].
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Re: Cards and Combos that need addressing

Postby Sarkath » Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:42 am

I think the brave soldier/panther soul combo is possible to beat once for any deck, maybe twice, but if you have to spend the resources necessary to beat it all three times the Gowen player has probably reached a point that is impossible for the opponent to recover since they'll probably be up against three other units with 4 agility out and enough sp for a fire tornado.

Yes, and you can beat tripple le bleau too. But the question is, is it powerful enough for its cost, and effort? I've heard that Brave / Panther requires 3 SP, and be ultimate once you have 5 in Gowen Sphere.

Which would result in 50 HP, 60 ATK, 4 Agi, Range 1 with a 2 SP ability called Slash, which attacks a row and can deal a maximum of 180 damage per turn, and usually have the preference to start due to the agility.

It can pretty much kill most defense rows within one turn, with one character. Of course the units will revive, but I think this is obvious over its sheer power for its simple execution. :)
Most Gowen players probably have a different perspective since they got many hard hitters.
Sarkath out. :ugeek:
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Re: Cards and Combos that need addressing

Postby arkbeetle » Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:03 am

Is it possibe for the cards to be rebalanced? Because i never heard such a thing before....
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