I found the reason Refess is so weak!

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Re: I found the reason Refess is so weak!

Postby EvilGenius » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:34 am

Logress wrote:Maybe the answer is in adding some level 1 cards of one of the other 3 spheres. I'm thinking of cards like Song Sorceress, Magic Weapon, Salamander Sylph/Undine, or even Sorcerer Guard. Also, take a look at Expert Sorcerer and Elite Crest Knight for Soul Cards.


I only wish Sorcerer Guard was a level 1. :mrgreen: But as a level 2, it's too expensive to splash into a Refess file. But that's a good thing considering the ability. The already buff Refess units should have a hard time getting even more DF. :D
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Re: I found the reason Refess is so weak!

Postby Romdeau » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:22 am

I rather enjoy playing refess, and (at least at the lower levels) I manage to do decently score wise. I don't remember exactly, but I've played roughly 20-25 games and have a majority winning percentage (again, don't remember 50-60%). Perhaps as I continue into higher level play, I will run into the glass ceiling that seems to be the hot craze.

Nice to meet you all (being my first post), I've decided to join this community in hopes of spreading the Alteil love. :D
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Re: I found the reason Refess is so weak!

Postby EvilGenius » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:36 am

Proxy wrote:I rather enjoy playing refess, and (at least at the lower levels) I manage to do decently score wise. I don't remember exactly, but I've played roughly 20-25 games and have a majority winning percentage (again, don't remember 50-60%). Perhaps as I continue into higher level play, I will run into the glass ceiling that seems to be the hot craze.

Nice to meet you all (being my first post), I've decided to join this community in hopes of spreading the Alteil love. :D


The "glass ceiling" seems to be Gowen, as the last 10 games (not exaggerating) were against Gowen players. Last 3 days, and I have yet to see any other Empire. I'm very close to quitting this game as it's becoming very redundant. Maybe if Refess had ways to handle Gowen, I wouldn't be so annoyed, but the Refess Starter has too few options.

Edit: At this point, I'm forced to just quit playing (just started another game, and guess what? A Gowen...). I'll play my daily Mirage Master for my 10 gran and hope that my Lottery card is something useful.
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Re: I found the reason Refess is so weak!

Postby DanTheTimid » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:16 pm

Welcome to the dark side (or I guess since we're all Refess players and your an evil genius perhaps I should say the light side) Evil Genius! You're finally seeing and feeling what players like myself have been seeing and feeling for weeks. That is to say, the same gowen opponents game after game after game that even with the rarer Refess cards, Refess just can't compete with.

And Proxy, good luck, pray you get lots of good treasure battle cards now while your still playing mainly starter deck opponents, I did but got them during closed beta so I had all my treasure battle cards stripped away when the game launched (how I so dearly regret being a part of the beta) and then I found myself in the level 10+ room against opponents with the best cards from the other clans (particularly gowen) where I went from being nearly un-beatable to having little to no chance, and thus no way to regain all my lost treasure battle cards. Refess definitely can compete with all the clans at the starter level, its just beyond that that the severe neutering Refess' non-starter cards received shows its ugly face.

For now we Refess players who are outside the 1-9 room really only have one game left to play that we can hope to win at, its called Mirage Master, and its through that that we can merely hope to some day get enough cards of one of the other clans to switch to (I'm so sick of seeing Gowen, who DO they lose too? anybody? cause thats who I want to run).

</overly dramatic speech>

Oh, and for those suggesting I hybrid, adding other clans like gowen to my refess. I have actually tried this, so far to no success. In theory it makes no sense, you've got good clans, and a weak clan, and you plan to beat the good clans by adding the same cards those good clans already have while still keeping mostly the cards from your bad clan? How does that make sense? If their cards are better then mine, I should just be running theirs period, why run Refess cards at all? And the puffballs really don't help generate much sp at all to make up the difference, they take 3 turns just to generate the +1sp advantage Will-o-Wisp used to generate for Refess in 1 turn (or to undo the damage a Shade does in 1 turn). Against Lawtia or Gowen you never really have a chance to generate any sp advantage from them at all, its only other refess or possibly Falkow that might let you keep the sp necessary to use their effect and let them live long enough for it to go off once or twice.

Still don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the suggestions, cause I really am trying to look at every angle to make Refess competitive, I'm just near empty at this point thus why I'm looking toward rebalance as a last resort.
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Re: I found the reason Refess is so weak!

Postby EvilGenius » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:38 pm

DanTheTimid wrote:Welcome to the dark side (or I guess since we're all Refess players and your an evil genius perhaps I should say the light side) Evil Genius! You're finally seeing and feeling what players like myself have been seeing and feeling for weeks. That is to say, the same gowen opponents game after game after game that even with the rarer Refess cards, Refess just can't compete with.

Oh, and for those suggesting I hybrid, adding other clans like gowen to my refess. I have actually tried this, so far to no success. In theory it makes no sense, you've got good clans, and a weak clan, and you plan to beat the good clans by adding the same cards those good clans already have while still keeping mostly the cards from your bad clan? How does that make sense? If their cards are better then mine, I should just be running theirs period, why run Refess cards at all? And the puffballs really don't help generate much sp at all to make up the difference, they take 3 turns just to generate the +1sp advantage Will-o-Wisp used to generate for Refess in 1 turn (or to undo the damage a Shade does in 1 turn). Against Lawtia or Gowen you never really have a chance to generate any sp advantage from them at all, its only other refess or possibly Falkow that might let you keep the sp necessary to use their effect and let them live long enough for it to go off once or twice.


I love how you call them "puffballs." :lol: I just wish their ability was lowered to a 1 SP for 2 SP like the Gowen equivalent. Played 3 more games this morning, all Gowens, so I'm starting to get bored. :roll:\

Edit: Apparantly we can't say puffballs without the puff. :ugeek:
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Re: I found the reason Refess is so weak!

Postby Grain » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:41 pm

Not all hope is lost.

I defeated a Gowen who had three Blitz soldiers and a Panther Soul!

They were foolish enough to put all of their great spirits in the same rows & columns, allowing me to use lancer & soul skills to drain their LP to zero.

The moral of this story; prey on the inexperienced and never give tips!
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Re: I found the reason Refess is so weak!

Postby DanTheTimid » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:34 pm

Grain wrote:Not all hope is lost.

I defeated a Gowen who had three Blitz soldiers and a Panther Soul!

They were foolish enough to put all of their great spirits in the same rows & columns, allowing me to use lancer & soul skills to drain their LP to zero.

The moral of this story; prey on the inexperienced and never give tips!


See the issue with that is, its not that I never win anymore, I do still win, but my wins are generally against people who are either inexperienced, make mistakes, or don't have many cards beyond the starters. Against players who have 3 brave soldier / panther soul, you better hope they are really weak players if your going to win cause anyone that knows what their doing is going to roll you. Against anyone thats of equals or near equal skill as you... you better hope their also playing refess cause most clan's decks that have been edited beyond just being a starter deck will roll you in a match of equal skill among the players.

Refess isn't so bad that they can't beat inferior players, its not like the gap between refess and the other clans is a huge one, but ideally the game's clans should be balanced that in a match of equal skill everyone can compete with each other. Right now it just doesn't seem that way, Refess has too many weaknesses and not enough strengths compared to the other clans (especially Gowen) so that just by choosing to run Refess you've put yourself at an immediate disadvantage. It may not be a huge disadavantage, but in a battle of equaly skilled players its enough to make the refess player come up the loser more often then not.
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Re: I found the reason Refess is so weak!

Postby Logress » Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:25 pm

Okay, that's it... I've had it.
The Japanese were very worried about all the balance issues being reported on Refess, so they went through some more playtesting last week... and they said that it seem to play fine, and was balanced with the other four colors. So either the Japanese brain has an extra lobe just for playing Refess, or something's amiss here. As of now, I'm not playing anymore Falkow (and my Black Cat deck is undefeated, too...). I'm going to switch to Refess and play the crap out of it until I figure out what's going on.

I checked the rankings this week and there are a few Refess in the top 20, shy of the 5 they should have but considering like 5% of the players are Refess i think that's well above average. Ironically, two of last week's top 20 switched from Refess to Gowen this week, and both their rankings dropped after (although that could be for any number of reasons). A few of the top Refess players have really, really good records. I have noticed one thing, there was a time when everyone thought Gowen was useless, then there was a time everyone thought Lawtia was useless. In both those cases this turned around when someone found a cheap, easy way to tweak the starter for maximum effect. This hasn't happened yet for Refess. (One could argue it's not necessary for Falkow -- add another Voredore, dummy). Whatever we're missing in the Refess camp, the one thing I've got hard numbers on is the lack of Iczers. Gowen and Lawtia have literally a thousand players each trying new things, perfecting what works, etc. It's not just that Refess are dropping out either, almost all new accounts are either Gowen or Lawtia, and while much less are Falkow the Falkow tend to become regulars so they kind of average out a little by the time you get to level 10. It could be that the style of Refess doesn't play as well in America, so the average new user just goes to Gowen or Lawtia. Let's face it, us Americans like our dragons and we like our vampires. Another possibility is that when new users troll the forums looking for some direction, they see lots of threads about Refess problems. I can tell you that before someone discovered LeBeau's effectiveness and the forums were full of threads about how broken Lawtia was, we got a lot less new Lawtia players.

Whatever the case, I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and start playing Refess. I might come back here with some good ideas, or I might make a total fool out of myself. That is always an option. If that happens, I'll be the first in line to complain to the Japanese.

Oh, and also I worked on the translation of all the original skills for all four Spheres, before and after they were adapted, and Refess was not hit harder than any of the others. Actually, the Japanese LeBeau was so strong I think Lawtia players would keep him out of the Soul area if they had him here. Remember, our cards are not based on the Japanese cards in play now, which have undergone five years of modifications to work with their other 900 cards. They are based on the original cards put out 5 years ago, so you can't really compare the two sets in any meaningful way.
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Re: I found the reason Refess is so weak!

Postby DanTheTimid » Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:47 pm

I'm VERY eager to hear your findings on this matter (or just how the Japanese play testers are beating the brave panther combo). I'd also like to apologize since I"m sure some of my own posts have led to your having "had it" and I shall try to cease and desist from bringing of the disparities between the cards since as you said, the game and cards have changed alot in Japan over time so my comparisons aren't completely valid. If I come off as loud and obnoxious, its only because there's a lot about the game I like and I've invested money in the game so the game means alot to me (other wise I wouldn't visit the forums at all let alone post topics like this), but at this point I'm feeling out of options for being successful. When people have issues I tend to find the best way to get them resolved is to be vocal about them, cause if your vocal enough either some one will chime in with a solution, or the game will be changed to fix the issue. Unfortunately so far no ones been able to give me a solution, which is why I began exploring other avenues.

(its worth noting that this topic was originally titled something like "taking a look at the japanese cards" and was just intended to be a thread where we'd work together to translate the japanese cards and see how the game has evolved in Japan, it was only later that I edited it to be about Refess because after translating a handful of key cards from every clan I had found all the other clans cards unchanged, and almost every refess card severely weakened. So my initial intentions were not to cause an unnecessary ruckus or a forum eyesore, my apologies again if that's what its become).
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Re: I found the reason Refess is so weak!

Postby BlackMustang » Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:57 pm

In Dan's defense:

While I disagree that Refess is much weaker then the other cards after balancing I feel like the edge the players feel might be rooted in the soul skills. The high end Refess cards have some of the absolute best soul skills in the game and they seem to have been left mostly intact, but these rare cards don't come with the Refess deck and any clown with some gran can win one and stick it in their falkow/gowen/lawtia deck. I know I have.

Having excellent soul skills is not to the advantage of a particular deck unless they give bonuses based on clan level.

I still think Refess is just fine though, and my win rate since I switched back from a hybrid to Falkow has probably been in the 90 percentile against Lawtia and Gowen, and 70 against other Falkows, with the vast majority of my losses coming from Refess players. It might just be me but I don't expect to win a match when the first card I see is bald and swinging a mace.
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