I found the reason Refess is so weak!

[teasel]

uh i don't see it as the same thing... a player can do something against the strategy described (instakill the phoenix with merciless death and assasin or bounce it trough mystere) but in magic you can't do anything against counter because if you try they will counter it... a game in magic against a counter deck usualy go like this
"i summ"
"COUNTER"
"i pla"
"COUNTER"
when both player are basicaly doing nothing every turn that's when you are boring your opponent to submission

[Phades]

uh i don't see it as the same thing... a player can do something against the strategy described (instakill the phoenix with merciless death and assasin or bounce it trough mystere) but in magic you can't do anything against counter because if you try they will counter it... a game in magic against a counter deck usualy go like this
"i summ"
"COUNTER"
"i pla"
"COUNTER"
when both player are basicaly doing nothing every turn that's when you are boring your opponent to submission

The difference is you can do nothing and while you do nothing, you take damage. Dust off some old copies from WOTC magazines to see what turbo stasis and its varaitions were all about. I mean hell, a friend of mine did land destruction black/red and another did hand destruction-> rack plays. All would be viewed as "stalling" even though you were also taking damage constantly. All of them were banned eventually....

[Chronomaster]

Saving time.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/bd256

[Grain]

This thread is becoming dangerously off-topic.

[Chronomaster]

This thread is becoming dangerously off-topic.

I don't see how it is. Logress was talking about how stalling out to a draw was Refess's major foothold, and we're talking about how that is in fact a very valid and powerful play style.

We're even bringing in supporting evidence. Do you have any idea how rare that is to see these days?

[Grain]

Do you have any idea how rare that is to see these days?

No.