Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Everything that doesn't go anywhere else.

Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby Illyasviel » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:21 pm

I agree with Dan wholeheartedly on this. Items that are only available for a small window of opportunity will only alienate the latecomers to the game. As well, those who can't save up enough Gran in the short time they are available, will be disgruntled. And let us say that in the future, these cards are part of some vital combo that takes over the Arenas by storm? What then? Only those who had the free money on hand get to win in the arenas? That'd be even worse than the LeBeau craziness from before, because there are a lot more players with LeBeau than with Noirweiden. Rougeerst, it'd be close...

But even so, there needs to be sufficient time for all things. I'm hoping that by the time the next expansion comes out, even free players will be able to get close to a full set. Otherwise it'll forever be a game of catch-up. (Now, let's say the average free player gets 80 Gran per week. 10 each day from MM, and 10 for the weekly ranking. They could play more, but they'd get trounced, so they settle for the one game a week. At that rate, it'd take just over 26 weeks for a single booster box. And with rarity issues, that'll mean there's still quite a few cards they'll need. Never mind the fact that there's no way to know how useful their new cards will be to them. Let's say it's a Gowen Player, and the 5star is Catherina. Not bad, but not really all that useful. Or a Lawtia player getting Thunderbolt. And so on.) At that rate, it'd take, at the minimum, over 2 YEARS to get a full set. Just how many expansions do you think they would have missed out on in that time? And that
s assuming they actually get a fifth box from recycling cards they get extras of, by the way.

So overall, what the free players need, is either more Gran, or more time. Both would be better, because I think the average free player will be lucky to get a single EX pack by the time they go.
Illyasviel
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:03 pm

Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby DanTheTimid » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:02 pm

For an update I just signed into my old Japanese Alteil account (amazed they didn't get rid of it from inactivity all these years) and the EX lottery appears to be for 100 gran, such a price point only further makes this seem like something the game REALLY needs to have made a permanent fixture of the game. I was originally expecting ex packs to cost 200 gran (and thus the cards within to be valued at about 100 gran) so this price point actually goes along with what I was originally thinking and doesn't seem overly expensive at all.

I also noticed what appears to be the EX packs themselves have returned to the store (apparently until 8/31 for some of them 9/29 for the others, this based on my rough translation). For those wondering, they are indeed 400 gran in the Japanese version as well. Unless I'm misreading and these are something different, that seems like a clear violation of the "limited time only" claim anyway. If your going to re-release the packs anyway, might as well re-release them on an annual basis so their never permanently gone (though I still think just having the lottery would be a better option since the packs aren't technically being re-released and getting the cards you want is much harder making it still worth while to buy packs).
The bunnies of Lavato have special abilities, like 'Action Skill: Make Carrot Disappear.'
User avatar
DanTheTimid
 
Posts: 1394
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:10 pm
Location: Glendale, AZ

Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby DanTheTimid » Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:38 am

So... I still haven't heard anything. Has my confirmation request at least been acknowledged and your just currently waiting for a response from the Japanese, or maybe is this a case of bad news that you simply don't want to have to give to me? I guess you could have just missed my thread since you guys were in Otakon until recently. Even if it is bad news, that the Japanese do not have any plans to ever allow permanent access to EX cards through any means, lottery or other wise, I'd still rather know then be left in the dark.

By the way, just wanted to thank all those who responded with words of agreement in this thread, its usually extremely rare that anyone agrees with me when I make posts that say anything negative about the current business practices of a game, regardless of the long term positives my suggestions might have for said game. Usually the responses are all "They're the business types, they know best, so shut up." so its nice that for once people can really see the issue with this business practice of "limited time only" and agree that it will cause harm to the game if it is continued. I can only hope our words reach some one and make a difference.
The bunnies of Lavato have special abilities, like 'Action Skill: Make Carrot Disappear.'
User avatar
DanTheTimid
 
Posts: 1394
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:10 pm
Location: Glendale, AZ

Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby azarael » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:21 pm

In my opinion, the addition of limited time collectibles, such as the Beta Avatar, as it adds to the game by giving the long-time players something unique. However, when you make cards that can actually be played only available for a limited time, you hurt the play ability of later players, no matter how much money they spend. You also hurt the people that just couldn't make the gran fast enough before the cards disappeared.

It seems like this is an attempt at allowing players to have 'unique' cards, but it fails in that it excludes the future player base from ever forming a strategy involving those cards, except perhaps to counter them.

-Azarael
azarael
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:26 pm

Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby Xovian » Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:49 am

I'll play devils advocate here.

While I'll admit with just the basic set, the EX cards are great, however we all know they are not an end all be all to the game. There are a lot more to be translated, some will far exceed anything we know in the game, some will make you wonder what they were thinking.
It isn't like many of the given effects are unique in the long term of the game, and if they exist now, I'd say its reasonable to believe more of the same will be forth coming.

Promotions like this do not hurt the game as much as a lot of you say. There are plenty of people playing right now that don't have the cards and even a few who don't really care for them aside from the art work.

Also on the other end of the spectrum, there are a large number of players who will never buy the cards (there are many now), I doubt just because a limited time offer expires is going to change that. If anything it would help to promote buying them instead.

And finally, by what many of you say, you're taking away from those who did buy them, including me.
I bought 3 of each, and i can assure you it didn't drastically sway my ratio of win/loss.
I had more losses before EX, I still have more losses then wins, I don't think thats changing any time soon, and certainly not because I have or don't have the EX cards.

Some will agree, some won't, but if they do one set of limiteds, you can bet there will be others.
I'm Chromatic, I embody all Spheres.
Image
User avatar
Xovian
 
Posts: 1131
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:01 pm

Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby DanTheTimid » Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:36 am

xovian1 wrote:It isn't like many of the given effects are unique in the long term of the game, and if they exist now, I'd say its reasonable to believe more of the same will be forth coming.


Well you have inadvertently inspired me to another solution to this issue should the permanent ex lottery not be something the Nice, Hard Working, Japanese People will agree too, releasing identical cards in the future with alternate art in normal sets would also solve the issue. I have no issue with limited time only things when their purely unique images, whether it be for avatars or for your cards. The only issue with this, is that in order for them to truly be identical other then the art they must also have EX in the name which would seem rather weird in normal sets. But perhaps a non-limited time edition of each ex set could be released featuring the same cards but with different art so that the original art will always remain unique for those that purchased the original limited time releases (plus they'll have first access to the cards since the limited edition version will always release first).

The problem with later releasing cards that aren't quite the same but are almost the same as you seem to be suggesting though is that people who have the originals do still have an advantage. Whether its because the originals work best in a certain deck then the new variants, or because having two of cards in the deck that do that same thing instead of just one is advantageous, there are lots of ways in which having access to limited edition cards can given players an advantage that new players or players who originally missed out can never make up.

xovian1 wrote:Also on the other end of the spectrum, there are a large number of players who will never buy the cards (there are many now), I doubt just because a limited time offer expires is going to change that. If anything it would help to promote buying them instead.


It will definitely help promote buying, that's why they're doing it. But not all methods of purchase promoting are worth the negative effects they may cause. Although my leaving the game and taking some of my friends I brought into the game with me may not feel like a big hit now (though I and many of my friends were financial supporters so they will feel something) the long term effects this sort of thing will cause, pushing away new players and causing further dissent among existing players, simply isn't worth the slim profit boost their receiving now.

xovian1 wrote:And finally, by what many of you say, you're taking away from those who did buy them, including me.
I bought 3 of each, and i can assure you it didn't drastically sway my ratio of win/loss.
I had more losses before EX, I still have more losses then wins, I don't think thats changing any time soon, and certainly not because I have or don't have the EX cards.


First off, I would be more sympathetic to people who have already bought cards IF you could sell or trade your cards, because yes, taking a limited edition card and making it non-limited will reduce its value so a suggestion like mine would be like robbing you guys. But that's not the case, you can't sell or trade cards, your cards have no real world value. If from a game play stand point the cards truly are as useless as you seem to suggest they are, then they have no value in any form, in which case I don't see why any of you should care if other people are given access to them (especially if they have to pay similar or potentially higher prices to collect full sets due to the randomness of a lottery). If they do have game play value (and as I've stated before there's a good chance many of these cards that seem useless now may become far more useful in the future) then they ARE giving people who bought them when they were available an unfair advantage over players who didn't buy them or joined the game after the promotion ended. So either way it seems hard for me to understand how their could be opposition to such a suggestion.

The only real damage I see this doing is a small decrease to initial EX pack sales since obviously there's less urgency to buy them if the cards they contain are not necessarily going to be gone forever, but again long term this will result in more players being happy and staying around that would have been angry or left over a business practice like this. And more players means more potential buyers who will very likely bring in more money long term then limited edition EX packs will bring in during the short term.

In any case thank you for your insight from the other side of the argument xovian1.
The bunnies of Lavato have special abilities, like 'Action Skill: Make Carrot Disappear.'
User avatar
DanTheTimid
 
Posts: 1394
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:10 pm
Location: Glendale, AZ

Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby Xovian » Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:21 pm

DanTheTimid wrote:The only real damage I see this doing is a small decrease to initial EX pack sales since obviously there's less urgency to buy them if the cards they contain are not necessarily going to be gone forever, but again long term this will result in more players being happy and staying around that would have been angry or left over a business practice like this. And more players means more potential buyers who will very likely bring in more money long term then limited edition EX packs will bring in during the short term.


I'll disagree with this. While this may not be a TCG, in every other aspect it is the same as many others.
Name a TCG, and they have had limiteds, and guess what those who play will continue to do so until they hit burn out.
New people will come and go, I don't see it being different here. Saying that it will stop new people from playing has no facts behind it, in fact I'd say given whats currently out there, would be just the opposite. I'll grant that since Alteil isn't like many others that it could be different, but you seem to imply that what you say is factual based on research, and not just an opinion. I disagree with the opinion, because in the past, other games like this have shown that premise to be false. Will it be true in this case for this game? Your guess is as good as mine, but I do not think so.

Two takes of the same coin. Which side will it land on, guess we'll have to wait and see.
I'm Chromatic, I embody all Spheres.
Image
User avatar
Xovian
 
Posts: 1131
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:01 pm

Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby DanTheTimid » Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:57 pm

Well I'll give you this much, I've never see the long term effects of this sort of thing on a card game with out selling/trading so its true, yes my comments are based on opinions and assumptions based on personal feelings and experiences not on hard facts.

That said, I HAVE seen many people leave other card games because of limited time only cards. I've seen card games I had really enjoyed and put alot of money into literally die in my area over issues like this, not just lose players but out right die! Its quite frustrating to be a player who put in the money to get those limited edition cards and then have no one to play against with them.

Whats more, as has been brought up many times on this forum and this thread, this games lack of selling/trading of cards makes the limited edition business scheme FAR FAR more damaging then it would to a normal trading card game. In any other trading card game, the hard core players who join later CAN still acquire the cards they missed out on, they just have to use trading or buying the cards off online auction sites to do so. Limited edition cards still have a negative effect on the player base regardless of this fact (I've seen many players quit yugioh and UFS in my area over limited edition cards they couldn't get just for a few real examples) but the potential to get those cards does still exist so the negative effect is not quite as severe. The difference between almost impossible to get and truly impossible to get is quite significant. And thats what limited edition cards are in Alteil, IMPOSSIBLE to get if you miss out on the time they were available.

This means even those die hard players in other card games who take the high trade/cost of limited time only cards as a necessary expense so they can keep playing won't stay around. There's a reason those players are willing to spend 100-2,000 dollars on single limited time only cards, cause its VERY important to those players that they have access to every deck building option that's out there. In this game, they're still going to feel that same way, yet their going to learn there's nothing they can do about it, they can never have access to the cards they missed out on. I may not have hard facts to back up my claims, but based on what I know of myself and people I've met I'm willing to bet they're response is going to be a negative one, possibly to the point of quitting. For any card game, Alteil included, I think those are the people you most want to keep most happy, the ones who shell out hundreds of bucks on the launch of every set trying to collect player sets of every card.

In the end the only hard fact I have to back up anything is that I, myself, am willing to quit over this. Maybe I'm the lone exception, but based on the people I've been talking to about this issue it sure doesn't sound that way.
The bunnies of Lavato have special abilities, like 'Action Skill: Make Carrot Disappear.'
User avatar
DanTheTimid
 
Posts: 1394
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:10 pm
Location: Glendale, AZ

Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby Xovian » Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:45 pm

DanTheTimid wrote:This means even those die hard players in other card games who take the high trade/cost of limited time only cards as a necessary expense so they can keep playing won't stay around. There's a reason those players are willing to spend 100-2,000 dollars on single limited time only cards, cause its VERY important to those players that they have access to every deck building option that's out there. In this game, they're still going to feel that same way, yet their going to learn there's nothing they can do about it, they can never have access to the cards they missed out on. I may not have hard facts to back up my claims, but based on what I know of myself and people I've met I'm willing to bet they're response is going to be a negative one, possibly to the point of quitting. For any card game, Alteil included, I think those are the people you most want to keep most happy, the ones who shell out hundreds of bucks on the launch of every set trying to collect player sets of every card.

In the end the only hard fact I have to back up anything is that I, myself, am willing to quit over this. Maybe I'm the lone exception, but based on the people I've been talking to about this issue it sure doesn't sound that way.


Just an observation, which you can correct me if I'm wrong.

You're saying you will probably quit because all the cards wont be available to everyone for all time due to these limited releases?

Just curious, how does this effect you?
You're playing now, you have access to the cards. So what exactly is the problem?
It sounds like to me, you are not one of the players who are willing to drop "100-2,000 dollars" for such things. As i said you can correct me if I'm wrong. But if you have access to them, it seems a bit redundant to complain about something that won't effect your playing.
People don't often complain about things that don't effect them.

Most of the people I've heard complaining haven't spent so much as a cent on the game. Granted there are a number of exceptions, but thats why i said most. So the point of brining up people who are willing to spend when there are probably more people who don't spend anything, seems kinda moot. Maybe an admin could comment on the ratio. Hopefully I'm wrong on this, but for some reason i doubt it.

The above is not aimed solely at just you, but as a general statement.
I'm Chromatic, I embody all Spheres.
Image
User avatar
Xovian
 
Posts: 1131
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:01 pm

Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby DanTheTimid » Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:09 pm

I have not bought the ex packs, that's true, however I have spent money on normal packs, so no I'm not a free player. So how does this effect me, well it will mean I will forever miss out on these cards yes, and yes I am annoyed by this factor. But as I've pointed out before, it effects far more then just me, it effects all players like me who have money but aren't spending it on the ex packs, it effects those who don't have money currently, and it effects all future players (whether free or spenders) as well.

I've seen bad business practices hurt card games I've played before, so even if I wasn't directly effected, if I had bought the ex packs, this STILL would be an issue that would matter to me. I not only care about fellow friends I've brought into the game that can't afford the packs, but even on the most selfish level of not caring at all about the feelings of others, if other people leave the game, I have less people to play against. I'm still effected negatively even on that level.

Now if your curious as to my reasons for not buying the EX packs knowing full well they are limited time only, they are 2 fold.

The first is that I find the price point a bit excessive and with my current financial situation I can't afford to drop down 50 bucks for a handful of cards of which only 1-2 I may even use in the foreseeable future. As more sets release and the game changes I might want to use more of those cards, but because this is a limited time offer I can't wait to find out if that's the case, I've just got to throw down large sums of money for absolutely nothing but the hope that I might get something out of it in the future. If money was no concern this wouldn't be an issue, but even if I was a wealthy man money would still be a concern to me, my money would not be infinite and as such I'd still try to get the most for my money whenever I spent it. There's just far too many better uses for 50 bucks right now.

The second is the more obvious reason, I don't like this business plan of limited time only releases and the best way I can show that is through my check book. I often buy things and give money to people or companies I trust or like even if I don't think I'm getting value for my money. To me I write it off as charity, I'm supporting the groups I feel deserve support. A company that uses limited time only business practices to make a quick buck now while alienating future players is not a company I want to support, just the opposite. I've had nothing but good experiences with all the members of the US alteil team, from Logress and Lupos looking into things I've asked about on the boards, to the conversation I had with GaoGaiGirl when I was able to sign on my alpha account prior to the beta launch. They've all been good to me and I wish them all well. But as long as the Japanese heads are pulling stunts like this, this isn't a game I can support.

One thing I've always felt is that you should never make a complaint about something with out offering a solution, and that's the point of my thread overall. Not to complain about Limited Time only business practices, to bash alteil, or prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that limited Time only cards will bring about the end of the game, but to put out solutions that avoid the potential negatives and hope that some one in charge over there listens to my words (and the echos of those who've agreed with me) and decides to enact one of my proposed solutions (or come up with their own).
The bunnies of Lavato have special abilities, like 'Action Skill: Make Carrot Disappear.'
User avatar
DanTheTimid
 
Posts: 1394
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:10 pm
Location: Glendale, AZ

PreviousNext

Return to Alteil General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: victorre and 2 guests