xovian1 wrote:You say potential negatives. What's a negative to you will be positives for others.
Wait, what? What about my negatives could be construed as positives for others? The only true positive I've seen argued and which I've always agreed with, is that it creates greater sales in the short term since it forces people who have money but don't necessarily want those cards to buy them anyway just so they don't miss out (and even this isn't necessarily a true positive because you miss out on all the potential future sales from when more people want those cards or more people come into the game who are willing to spend). How would some one whose missed out on getting these cards ever consider that a positive? The only player who I could potentially see this as a positive for is some one who bought all the packs with the intent of having an unfair advantage over future players once the cards are no longer available.
xovian1 wrote:While I'm the only one who has posted in this thread for this side of the fence so to speak, you should bear in mind the old saying goes "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". In other words if someone has a complaint, they are more likely to voice the concern , then someone who is happy with the current set up.
Your a little bit off there, the point of the saying "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" actually supports me, its that if you have a problem you should speak up about it because the issue that makes it self known is the one that is most likely to be dealt with. If 2 wheels are in need of grease, its the one that makes its problem known by squeaking that's going to get fixed up with more grease, not the one that waits for things to get better on their own and remains silent. Thus that saying supports me bringing up this issue rather then leaving it unsaid.
I've stated many times that I'm cognitive of the fact I'm just one person, my having an opinion does not mean every player shares my opinion, however I have found in the past when I've made posts like these that its the people who disagree with me who post the most, people who agree remain silent often because they feel they have nothing further to add and its up to the other side to first provide reason not to agree with my opinion. The fact the majority of posters so far have supported me this time makes me wonder if perhaps there are far more people then usual who truly passionately agree with me on this issue, and the fact your the only real poster against it (while it certainly doesn't mean others don't exist) does seem to speak to the fact that perhaps the people who disagree with me aren't very numerous.
xovian1 wrote:As to the price, 10$ can get you pretty much any 3 packs you want as far as EX. As to paying 50$? I can't even fill my gas tank for that price anymore. If people really desired such things they would find a way to get what they want. There's only one group who can not buy them even if they want to, and those are that of children who can't earn money. For everyone else it is always a choice based on priorities.
The question when it comes to entertainment will always be how much of a priority does it hold for you?
Its true, just a couple days ago I spent over 50 dollars filling my tank, but that's not a reason why this price is reasonable, that's a reason why this price is even harder on us then it used to be. Just a year or two ago I was filling my tank for 40 bucks and that 10 bucks I wasn't spending was often money that could be used toward entertainment purchases. A game that sells things at unreasonable prices for the average consumer is going to price itself right out of business. But price isn't my complaint here, if things are poorly priced one of two things will usually happen, either the business will fail, or the business will alter their prices to be more reasonable for the current market. I don't think they'll just let Alteil die, if enough people aren't buying packs I expect prices will go down. If they are buying enough packs, they'll stay right where they are. Price point is something the market will decide and even if the ex pack prices don't go down, the options this game allows for getting virtual money to get cards through free means allows all players regardless of their financial status to still get cards even if they are at drastically different rates. Its this system of supply and demand combined with these free avenues to gran that allow me to not be overly upset with prices. If I disagree with a current price I have a clear way of responding, by not buying those packs until the price goes down, I earn enough free Gran to do so, or my financial situation changes.
But limited time only is different, its not something you can just boycott purchasing and not be forever harmed by as you will lose access to those cards.
xovian1 wrote:I at least see your point of view about the limiteds, but the game is far to young to say similar cards, or ones that are even better aren't just around the corner that will be around for the life of the game. So for all we know, we may be having this discussion for no reason at all.
They've made the statement before that they intend for every card you own to always be useful, that means they won't be releasing cards in the future that obsolete cards released now (a policy I'm very happy for). It also means the EX cards can only ever grow more useful, not less useful. Other cards may have similar effects, but by this policy, they won't ever cause these EX cards to lose their usefulness which means people who miss out on these EX cards are forever missing out on access to useful cards.
Again I'm not saying these cards will for sure rule the future meta, maybe they will maybe they won't, but I do know that their potential to do so with players no longer having access to them IS a negative thing (atleast in my personal opinion and experience).
lupos wrote:Ok, still at con, no time to go over this whole thing at the moment but, it's like this. In Japan the EX lottery makes sense. Here it doesn't yet. At some point it will. When it makes sense, we will do it. No reason not to. As for the limited time frame, the short answer is, how is this different than a limited number of prints of a card? A certain group of people got it, in our case those who bought it in the window of opportunity, and in other games cases, those who got really lucky when they first came out or who spent a ton of money on them on ebay or a flea market or con.
First off thank you very much for finally providing me a response. Next, I'm not quite sure I completely understand your response. So your saying, yes, we most definitely will receive an EX lottery at some point, however the lottery itself will also only be a limited time thing. If that is the case then the lottery really doesn't solve anything. As for the limited time frame thing in otehr card games, this has been brought up and addressed many times. The biggest issue, above all others, is that other card games allow trading and selling of cards. That means that no matter how rare a card is, if you want a card bad enough, you can generally find some one whose willing to sell or trade it to you. In Alteil if you want a limited time only card, no matter how bad you may want it, your SOL. Another thing, in real card games, limited print cards that are worth running tend to get reprinted time and time again so that all players can get their hands on them, and if not games often use ban lists and limits on people being able to only use cards that are easily obtainable for tournaments (also known as block, rotation, or cycle systems). I suppose they could do such a thing in Alteil too, limit the use of EX cards from tournaments, but it seems like a silly an unnecessary thing to do when its so easy to make the cards available to everyone.
Its also worth noting that real card games have often used 1st edition or Limited/Unlimited designators to allow the first run of cards to be limited, but cards with different border color (or missing 1st edition symbol) and the exact same pictures/effects to be re-released as many times as they need to allow players access to them. That allows them to theoretically never stop producing any set of cards as long as their is demand for them with out significantly reducing the value of the originally released cards. Card value doesn't play a part in Alteil because of the lack of trading/selling but this does illustrate that most card games actually put alot of effort into finding ways to keep producing cards and prevent them from being limited. Usually the reason they stop making cards anymore is not because they think its a benefit to limit the number of those cards that exist, but because its not profitable to keep printing them. Alteil doesn't have that problem, there is no cost to produce a new set of EX cards, their purely digital.
lupos wrote:As for the "we aren't big enough to do this sort of thing yet" thing, would you prefer we are way more generous with everything, lure in more people, lull them in to a false sense of "awesome stuff for free-ness" and then yank the rug out from under them by introducing all of these amazingly evil money grubbing schemes of ours, which are standard practice in every card game known to man? So then we look like jerks for doing what is expected of us from the beginning.
I whole heartedly agree with this, regardless of your size it doesn't make limited time only cards any more or less negative for the game. Yes bigger, most established games can take the hit better because they've already established themselves so if they lose players there's still a lot left and many players have already invested too much money in the game to quit over something like this, but it doesn't change the negative impact it would have on the game and people's perceptions of Alteil.
lupos wrote:You wana play a real life card game? 20$ for a starter pack. Alteil? free! You wana get some new cards? Have to spend money. Alteil? Can get some cards for free. And for those of you who aren't good at math, 0 cards for free * 100000000000 is still 0 cards for free. So proportionately we give you infinitely more card for free than anyone else.
Again comparing to real card games doesn't fly because real cards, aside from being physical persistent things (even if magic the gathering dies I'll always have my cards which I can admire and if I'm lucky have friends that still have their cards I could play with, if alteil dies I have nothing to show for it), also can be traded and sold for real money. You can neither trade or sell cards in alteil, thus cards in alteil have no resell monetary value like cards do in other card games (even other virtual ones). Its also worth noting that when I first got into UFS it was because they were giving out free (yes 100% free) starter packs to people (Taki pack or Chun-li pack were your choices) so no alteil isn't the first and only card game to let you play for free. I could also bring up numerous online virtual card games I've played all of which provide you with starters for free and they are obviously a much better comparison.
All that said, high pricing is not the point of this thread, even though it some how keeps getting brought up my beef is not with the pricing.
lupos wrote:Not to mention I feel pretty good saying that we have a very good game here. This isn't some tie in junk with some other product you already recognize with printed on it to make an extra buck. It's fun. I've played with one of the same 4 decks over and over and over again for the past few days, and at every con, and it's still always exciting. And I'm using the free starter decks.
I completely agree that Alteil is a very good game, its very unique and while it has its issues like all card games it is overall a pretty well balanced game too. The fact its a good game is why I'm so passionate about it and this issue, cause its not a game I want to quit. Unfortunately even the best games can allow poor business practices to have significant negative impacts upon them. Maybe I'm misunderstanding but it sounds like your suggesting that because you have a good game your justified doing business practices that negatively effect your players. That's like saying its ok for a sports players to act like *bleep* to his team and fans as long as he play well. There are teams and cities that will put up with that *bleep* but I'm of the opinion you bench, trade, or release those players unless they get their head on straight.
lupos wrote:Also, and not swearing to anything here, there is always the chance that these cards will be used in the future in other ways. Tournament prizes comes to mind. But there are a variety of ways our more rare cards could be used. Heck, we could even just re release them again for a limited time at some other point so newer plays have a chance to grab them. Who knows... well, maybe me, but I digress.
I'm not a big proponent of re-releases that are prize based only, especially tournament based, because if it does become the case that any of these EX cards become part of a meta defining deck, its going to be the people who already own them that are going to be in the best position to win more of them. Still I will say that its much better then nothing if at least some other alternative for getting the cards exists. As for re-releasing them again for a limited time, this is perfectly exceptable for me as long as its something that we can count on to keep happening every so often, whether its every 6 months, once a year, what have you, the key is that if a new player asks me about a card I have that's not currently available I can tell them "Well its not available right now, but if you want one just wait a bit cause they'll be making it available again in the future". That is a lot less painful to hear then "Sorry man, you missed out."
One last thing, thank you to all those whom I've either not known or barely known who've recently either Private Messaged me or contacted me through other means with kind words and words of support. I've truly have appreciated every message I've gotten. I worry that I can some times come off as overly critical, harsh, or haughty on the boards at times and its nice to know there are those who still appreciate my long rants in spite of that.
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