Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby Xovian » Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:44 pm

DanTheTimid wrote:One thing I've always felt is that you should never make a complaint about something with out offering a solution, and that's the point of my thread overall. Not to complain about Limited Time only business practices, to bash alteil, or prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that limited Time only cards will bring about the end of the game, but to put out solutions that avoid the potential negatives and hope that some one in charge over there listens to my words (and the echos of those who've agreed with me) and decides to enact one of my proposed solutions (or come up with their own).


You say potential negatives. What's a negative to you will be positives for others.
While I'm the only one who has posted in this thread for this side of the fence so to speak, you should bear in mind the old saying goes "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". In other words if someone has a complaint, they are more likely to voice the concern , then someone who is happy with the current set up.

As to the price, 10$ can get you pretty much any 3 packs you want as far as EX. As to paying 50$? I can't even fill my gas tank for that price anymore. If people really desired such things they would find a way to get what they want. There's only one group who can not buy them even if they want to, and those are that of children who can't earn money. For everyone else it is always a choice based on priorities.
The question when it comes to entertainment will always be how much of a priority does it hold for you?

I at least see your point of view about the limiteds, but the game is far to young to say similar cards, or ones that are even better aren't just around the corner that will be around for the life of the game. So for all we know, we may be having this discussion for no reason at all.

Food for thought.
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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby lupos » Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:48 am

Ok, still at con, no time to go over this whole thing at the moment but, it's like this. In Japan the EX lottery makes sense. Here it doesn't yet. At some point it will. When it makes sense, we will do it. No reason not to. As for the limited time frame, the short answer is, how is this different than a limited number of prints of a card? A certain group of people got it, in our case those who bought it in the window of opportunity, and in other games cases, those who got really lucky when they first came out or who spent a ton of money on them on ebay or a flea market or con.

As for the "we aren't big enough to do this sort of thing yet" thing, would you prefer we are way more generous with everything, lure in more people, lull them in to a false sense of "awesome stuff for free-ness" and then yank the rug out from under them by introducing all of these amazingly evil money grubbing schemes of ours, which are standard practice in every card game known to man? So then we look like jerks for doing what is expected of us from the beginning.

You wana play a real life card game? 20$ for a starter pack. Alteil? free! You wana get some new cards? Have to spend money. Alteil? Can get some cards for free. And for those of you who aren't good at math, 0 cards for free * 100000000000 is still 0 cards for free. So proportionately we give you infinitely more card for free than anyone else. Not to mention I feel pretty good saying that we have a very good game here. This isn't some tie in junk with some other product you already recognize with printed on it to make an extra buck. It's fun. I've played with one of the same 4 decks over and over and over again for the past few days, and at every con, and it's still always exciting. And I'm using the free starter decks.

Also, and not swearing to anything here, there is always the chance that these cards will be used in the future in other ways. Tournament prizes comes to mind. But there are a variety of ways our more rare cards could be used. Heck, we could even just re release them again for a limited time at some other point so newer plays have a chance to grab them. Who knows... well, maybe me, but I digress.

Anyway, off to teach people to play Alteil for 4 more hours and give away some prints before hopping a plane and getting home at 1a.m. :P

-lupos out
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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby DanTheTimid » Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:05 pm

xovian1 wrote:You say potential negatives. What's a negative to you will be positives for others.


Wait, what? What about my negatives could be construed as positives for others? The only true positive I've seen argued and which I've always agreed with, is that it creates greater sales in the short term since it forces people who have money but don't necessarily want those cards to buy them anyway just so they don't miss out (and even this isn't necessarily a true positive because you miss out on all the potential future sales from when more people want those cards or more people come into the game who are willing to spend). How would some one whose missed out on getting these cards ever consider that a positive? The only player who I could potentially see this as a positive for is some one who bought all the packs with the intent of having an unfair advantage over future players once the cards are no longer available.

xovian1 wrote:While I'm the only one who has posted in this thread for this side of the fence so to speak, you should bear in mind the old saying goes "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". In other words if someone has a complaint, they are more likely to voice the concern , then someone who is happy with the current set up.


Your a little bit off there, the point of the saying "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" actually supports me, its that if you have a problem you should speak up about it because the issue that makes it self known is the one that is most likely to be dealt with. If 2 wheels are in need of grease, its the one that makes its problem known by squeaking that's going to get fixed up with more grease, not the one that waits for things to get better on their own and remains silent. Thus that saying supports me bringing up this issue rather then leaving it unsaid.

I've stated many times that I'm cognitive of the fact I'm just one person, my having an opinion does not mean every player shares my opinion, however I have found in the past when I've made posts like these that its the people who disagree with me who post the most, people who agree remain silent often because they feel they have nothing further to add and its up to the other side to first provide reason not to agree with my opinion. The fact the majority of posters so far have supported me this time makes me wonder if perhaps there are far more people then usual who truly passionately agree with me on this issue, and the fact your the only real poster against it (while it certainly doesn't mean others don't exist) does seem to speak to the fact that perhaps the people who disagree with me aren't very numerous.

xovian1 wrote:As to the price, 10$ can get you pretty much any 3 packs you want as far as EX. As to paying 50$? I can't even fill my gas tank for that price anymore. If people really desired such things they would find a way to get what they want. There's only one group who can not buy them even if they want to, and those are that of children who can't earn money. For everyone else it is always a choice based on priorities.
The question when it comes to entertainment will always be how much of a priority does it hold for you?


Its true, just a couple days ago I spent over 50 dollars filling my tank, but that's not a reason why this price is reasonable, that's a reason why this price is even harder on us then it used to be. Just a year or two ago I was filling my tank for 40 bucks and that 10 bucks I wasn't spending was often money that could be used toward entertainment purchases. A game that sells things at unreasonable prices for the average consumer is going to price itself right out of business. But price isn't my complaint here, if things are poorly priced one of two things will usually happen, either the business will fail, or the business will alter their prices to be more reasonable for the current market. I don't think they'll just let Alteil die, if enough people aren't buying packs I expect prices will go down. If they are buying enough packs, they'll stay right where they are. Price point is something the market will decide and even if the ex pack prices don't go down, the options this game allows for getting virtual money to get cards through free means allows all players regardless of their financial status to still get cards even if they are at drastically different rates. Its this system of supply and demand combined with these free avenues to gran that allow me to not be overly upset with prices. If I disagree with a current price I have a clear way of responding, by not buying those packs until the price goes down, I earn enough free Gran to do so, or my financial situation changes.

But limited time only is different, its not something you can just boycott purchasing and not be forever harmed by as you will lose access to those cards.

xovian1 wrote:I at least see your point of view about the limiteds, but the game is far to young to say similar cards, or ones that are even better aren't just around the corner that will be around for the life of the game. So for all we know, we may be having this discussion for no reason at all.


They've made the statement before that they intend for every card you own to always be useful, that means they won't be releasing cards in the future that obsolete cards released now (a policy I'm very happy for). It also means the EX cards can only ever grow more useful, not less useful. Other cards may have similar effects, but by this policy, they won't ever cause these EX cards to lose their usefulness which means people who miss out on these EX cards are forever missing out on access to useful cards.

Again I'm not saying these cards will for sure rule the future meta, maybe they will maybe they won't, but I do know that their potential to do so with players no longer having access to them IS a negative thing (atleast in my personal opinion and experience).

lupos wrote:Ok, still at con, no time to go over this whole thing at the moment but, it's like this. In Japan the EX lottery makes sense. Here it doesn't yet. At some point it will. When it makes sense, we will do it. No reason not to. As for the limited time frame, the short answer is, how is this different than a limited number of prints of a card? A certain group of people got it, in our case those who bought it in the window of opportunity, and in other games cases, those who got really lucky when they first came out or who spent a ton of money on them on ebay or a flea market or con.


First off thank you very much for finally providing me a response. Next, I'm not quite sure I completely understand your response. So your saying, yes, we most definitely will receive an EX lottery at some point, however the lottery itself will also only be a limited time thing. If that is the case then the lottery really doesn't solve anything. As for the limited time frame thing in otehr card games, this has been brought up and addressed many times. The biggest issue, above all others, is that other card games allow trading and selling of cards. That means that no matter how rare a card is, if you want a card bad enough, you can generally find some one whose willing to sell or trade it to you. In Alteil if you want a limited time only card, no matter how bad you may want it, your SOL. Another thing, in real card games, limited print cards that are worth running tend to get reprinted time and time again so that all players can get their hands on them, and if not games often use ban lists and limits on people being able to only use cards that are easily obtainable for tournaments (also known as block, rotation, or cycle systems). I suppose they could do such a thing in Alteil too, limit the use of EX cards from tournaments, but it seems like a silly an unnecessary thing to do when its so easy to make the cards available to everyone.

Its also worth noting that real card games have often used 1st edition or Limited/Unlimited designators to allow the first run of cards to be limited, but cards with different border color (or missing 1st edition symbol) and the exact same pictures/effects to be re-released as many times as they need to allow players access to them. That allows them to theoretically never stop producing any set of cards as long as their is demand for them with out significantly reducing the value of the originally released cards. Card value doesn't play a part in Alteil because of the lack of trading/selling but this does illustrate that most card games actually put alot of effort into finding ways to keep producing cards and prevent them from being limited. Usually the reason they stop making cards anymore is not because they think its a benefit to limit the number of those cards that exist, but because its not profitable to keep printing them. Alteil doesn't have that problem, there is no cost to produce a new set of EX cards, their purely digital.

lupos wrote:As for the "we aren't big enough to do this sort of thing yet" thing, would you prefer we are way more generous with everything, lure in more people, lull them in to a false sense of "awesome stuff for free-ness" and then yank the rug out from under them by introducing all of these amazingly evil money grubbing schemes of ours, which are standard practice in every card game known to man? So then we look like jerks for doing what is expected of us from the beginning.


I whole heartedly agree with this, regardless of your size it doesn't make limited time only cards any more or less negative for the game. Yes bigger, most established games can take the hit better because they've already established themselves so if they lose players there's still a lot left and many players have already invested too much money in the game to quit over something like this, but it doesn't change the negative impact it would have on the game and people's perceptions of Alteil.

lupos wrote:You wana play a real life card game? 20$ for a starter pack. Alteil? free! You wana get some new cards? Have to spend money. Alteil? Can get some cards for free. And for those of you who aren't good at math, 0 cards for free * 100000000000 is still 0 cards for free. So proportionately we give you infinitely more card for free than anyone else.


Again comparing to real card games doesn't fly because real cards, aside from being physical persistent things (even if magic the gathering dies I'll always have my cards which I can admire and if I'm lucky have friends that still have their cards I could play with, if alteil dies I have nothing to show for it), also can be traded and sold for real money. You can neither trade or sell cards in alteil, thus cards in alteil have no resell monetary value like cards do in other card games (even other virtual ones). Its also worth noting that when I first got into UFS it was because they were giving out free (yes 100% free) starter packs to people (Taki pack or Chun-li pack were your choices) so no alteil isn't the first and only card game to let you play for free. I could also bring up numerous online virtual card games I've played all of which provide you with starters for free and they are obviously a much better comparison.

All that said, high pricing is not the point of this thread, even though it some how keeps getting brought up my beef is not with the pricing.

lupos wrote:Not to mention I feel pretty good saying that we have a very good game here. This isn't some tie in junk with some other product you already recognize with printed on it to make an extra buck. It's fun. I've played with one of the same 4 decks over and over and over again for the past few days, and at every con, and it's still always exciting. And I'm using the free starter decks.
-lupos out


I completely agree that Alteil is a very good game, its very unique and while it has its issues like all card games it is overall a pretty well balanced game too. The fact its a good game is why I'm so passionate about it and this issue, cause its not a game I want to quit. Unfortunately even the best games can allow poor business practices to have significant negative impacts upon them. Maybe I'm misunderstanding but it sounds like your suggesting that because you have a good game your justified doing business practices that negatively effect your players. That's like saying its ok for a sports players to act like *bleep* to his team and fans as long as he play well. There are teams and cities that will put up with that *bleep* but I'm of the opinion you bench, trade, or release those players unless they get their head on straight.

lupos wrote:Also, and not swearing to anything here, there is always the chance that these cards will be used in the future in other ways. Tournament prizes comes to mind. But there are a variety of ways our more rare cards could be used. Heck, we could even just re release them again for a limited time at some other point so newer plays have a chance to grab them. Who knows... well, maybe me, but I digress.


I'm not a big proponent of re-releases that are prize based only, especially tournament based, because if it does become the case that any of these EX cards become part of a meta defining deck, its going to be the people who already own them that are going to be in the best position to win more of them. Still I will say that its much better then nothing if at least some other alternative for getting the cards exists. As for re-releasing them again for a limited time, this is perfectly exceptable for me as long as its something that we can count on to keep happening every so often, whether its every 6 months, once a year, what have you, the key is that if a new player asks me about a card I have that's not currently available I can tell them "Well its not available right now, but if you want one just wait a bit cause they'll be making it available again in the future". That is a lot less painful to hear then "Sorry man, you missed out."

One last thing, thank you to all those whom I've either not known or barely known who've recently either Private Messaged me or contacted me through other means with kind words and words of support. I've truly have appreciated every message I've gotten. I worry that I can some times come off as overly critical, harsh, or haughty on the boards at times and its nice to know there are those who still appreciate my long rants in spite of that.
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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby lupos » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:21 pm

DanTheTimid wrote:people who agree remain silent often because they feel they have nothing further to add


Wow, that's awfully presumptuous. So because only a few people disagree and no one else comments they must support your side?

DanTheTimid wrote:But limited time only is different, its not something you can just boycott purchasing and not be forever harmed by as you will lose access to those cards.


Sure it is, just use a good strategy that doesn't involve those cards and be prepared for their existence. Just like you used to have to prepare for any number of other techniques before they came out. We already discussed that these cards aren't show stoppers. They level the playing field and help negate the Lebeau issue. Because even if you don't have them, a lot of people do, so a lot less people use 3xLebeau. And you didn't have to spend a dime. Aside from that, if you really want them, go walk someone's dog after hours. Make a lemonade stand, buy the cards. If you don't get them now, they will most likely reappear at some point, but it might be a while. So really it's not that you'll never get them, just that you might have to wait a while. Early bird gets the worm so to speak.

xovian1 wrote:I at least see your point of view about the limiteds, but the game is far to young to say similar cards, or ones that are even better aren't just around the corner that will be around for the life of the game. So for all we know, we may be having this discussion for no reason at all.


Exactly.

DanTheTimid wrote:They've made the statement before that they intend for every card you own to always be useful, that means they won't be releasing cards in the future that obsolete cards released now (a policy I'm very happy for). It also means the EX cards can only ever grow more useful, not less useful. Other cards may have similar effects, but by this policy, they won't ever cause these EX cards to lose their usefulness which means people who miss out on these EX cards are forever missing out on access to useful cards.


Seriously? Would you be happier if they eventually were useless? You know, some people only ever play one color deck and recycle all the other cards they get. I.E 3/4 of all the cards will never be useful to them. Less they play a multi-color deck of course but that's still a minority of players so far. Should all their cards some day suck because you don't use them? I know I'm over extrapolating here but this just seems like silly logic to me.

DanTheTimid wrote:Again I'm not saying these cards will for sure rule the future meta, maybe they will maybe they won't, but I do know that their potential to do so with players no longer having access to them IS a negative thing (atleast in my personal opinion and experience).


But if they were unbalanced, then we would fix things. Either by overall retooling or by releasing some other cards to smooth things out.

DanTheTimid wrote:First off thank you very much for finally providing me a response. Next, I'm not quite sure I completely understand your response. So your saying, yes, we most definitely will receive an EX lottery at some point, however the lottery itself will also only be a limited time thing.


No, if/when there is an EX lottery it will most likely be permanent. However now that you mention it, depending on the number of EX cards we have when that time comes, certain ones may not always be in circulation. You see, the EX cards fix Lebeau, even for those who don't buy them, simply by existing. But the only way they do that is if a bunch of people have them. Now, if we didn't limit the length of their availability people might not have rushed out and bought them and Lebeau would still be over used. Maybe. As for the time limit, well, we have been saying all along that the first full expansion should be next month. If I'm not mistaken the EX cards are available until early October. Soooo.... one would assume the expansion would also deal with the Lebeau issue. Then, it's no longer an issue, unless of course you just really want the angel cards but don't have money. In which case... tough? :/

DanTheTimid wrote:Its also worth noting that real card games have often used 1st edition or Limited/Unlimited designators to allow the first run of cards to be limited, but cards with different border color (or missing 1st edition symbol) and the exact same pictures/effects to be re-released as many times as they need to allow players access to them. That allows them to theoretically never stop producing any set of cards as long as their is demand for them with out significantly reducing the value of the originally released cards. Card value doesn't play a part in Alteil because of the lack of trading/selling but this does illustrate that most card games actually put a lot of effort into finding ways to keep producing cards and prevent them from being limited. Usually the reason they stop making cards anymore is not because they think its a benefit to limit the number of those cards that exist, but because its not profitable to keep printing them. Alteil doesn't have that problem, there is no cost to produce a new set of EX cards, their purely digital.


But we do have the problem of making things more desirable as well as keeping things new and exciting. Rare = desirable. Limited time = exciting. They've been doing this a long time in Japan and it's worked rather well for them. So, it's what we are trying out. If they're right then it's what we will keep doing. If you're right, we will look into ways to improve.



DanTheTimid wrote:I whole heartedly agree with this, regardless of your size it doesn't make limited time only cards any more or less negative for the game.


That is assuming you are correct.

DanTheTimid wrote:Again comparing to real card games doesn't fly


Sure it does, as there are plenty of comparisons to make. Comparison implying assessing their likenesses and differences. Acting as if they are exactly the same would be silly. But they are worth comparing for the sake of discussion and for relating ideas to people.

Also, I didn't say Alteil was the first or only to give you a free starter, but it is rare in real world games. As for all the other ones you've played, please do list them. We are always looking into what our competition is doing so if you know some one don't know of I'd be glad to check them out.

DanTheTimid wrote:I completely agree that Alteil is a very good game, its very unique and while it has its issues like all card games it is overall a pretty well balanced game too. The fact its a good game is why I'm so passionate about it and this issue, cause its not a game I want to quit. Unfortunately even the best games can allow poor business practices to have significant negative impacts upon them. Maybe I'm misunderstanding but it sounds like your suggesting that because you have a good game your justified doing business practices that negatively effect your players. That's like saying its ok for a sports players to act like *bleep* to his team and fans as long as he play well. There are teams and cities that will put up with that *bleep* but I'm of the opinion you bench, trade, or release those players unless they get their head on straight.


I appreciate your concern, I really do, and I genuinely agree with your assessment that we need to be good to our customers and not **** them over or else we will regret it. It's why we all take the time to talk to you all here, personally. Aagain, like you say, if this really is a bad business practice, it will become apparent. But at the moment none of us are convinced that it is. And while you are, you don't have any more clout to back up your claim to correctness than I do when talking to the guys in japan about the arena situation. 4 years of experience beats us both out. They aren't against trying new and different things, but if it ain't broke don't fix it.

DanTheTimid wrote:I'm not a big proponent of re-releases that are prize based only, especially tournament based, because if it does become the case that any of these EX cards become part of a meta defining deck, its going to be the people who already own them that are going to be in the best position to win more of them. Still I will say that its much better then nothing if at least some other alternative for getting the cards exists. As for re-releasing them again for a limited time, this is perfectly exceptable for me as long as its something that we can count on to keep happening every so often, whether its every 6 months, once a year, what have you, the key is that if a new player asks me about a card I have that's not currently available I can tell them "Well its not available right now, but if you want one just wait a bit cause they'll be making it available again in the future". That is a lot less painful to hear then "Sorry man, you missed out."


It's understandable. I see your point, but what do you say when they see your alpha/beta avatar? I've not heard a single complaint about those. And if these are not actually "must have or you'll always looose" cards, then yes it may seem sucky to you, but not to everyone. And as you say, the market will decide what is and isn't a good idea.


DanTheTimid wrote:One last thing, thank you to all those whom I've either not known or barely known who've recently either Private Messaged me or contacted me through other means with kind words and words of support. I've truly have appreciated every message I've gotten. I worry that I can some times come off as overly critical, harsh, or haughty on the boards at times and its nice to know there are those who still appreciate my long rants in spite of that.


You certainly can seem that way ;) , as I imagine to some we can seem a little "ivory tower-ish", though I'll never know why, but as long as you aren't being intentionally rude or unreasonable we shall continue to do our best to keep an open dialogue going about any and all issues.


Must run, will proofread this later :P
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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby Chronomaster » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:37 pm

lupos wrote:as I imagine to some we can seem a little "ivory tower-ish", though I'll never know why

You should know that yourself Mr. CliffyB fanboy. :D
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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby lupos » Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:26 pm

Chronomaster wrote:You should know that yourself Mr. CliffyB fanboy. :D


I don't see what my man crush has to do with this! ;)

The mans apeal is indeniable. Much like that damned Justin timberlake! Stupid catchy music and enamouring personalty having ****.

<not very subtle sexual orienation verifying behavior>
Being as I'm pushing thirty, famous women I love:
Jenny McCarthy
Carmen Electra
Elvira ( I Don't care is shes like a million years old now. Shes the reason I'll be forever messed up over goth girls. Damned crazy goth girls!)
</T.M.I.>

:oops:
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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby Grain » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:13 pm

lupos wrote:
Chronomaster wrote:You should know that yourself Mr. CliffyB fanboy. :D


I don't see what my man crush has to do with this! ;)

The mans apeal is indeniable. Much like that damned Justin timberlake! Stupid catchy music and enamouring personalty having ****.

<not very subtle sexual orienation verifying behavior>
Being as I'm pushing thirty, famous women I love:
Jenny McCarthy
Carmen Electra
Elvira ( I Don't care is shes like a million years old now. Shes the reason I'll be forever messed up over goth girls. Damned crazy goth girls!)
</T.M.I.>

:oops:


Lupos has just had his first official spaz moment on the forum! :lol:

Reminds me of an anime character...

Deshou...
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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby lupos » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:43 pm

Wait till I get going... :P

EDIT for MP3-ness
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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby azarael » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:57 pm

Erm, I haven't read the entire page of posts at the moment, but I did see something that Lupos put in his last one.

It's understandable. I see your point, but what do you say when they see your alpha/beta avatar? I've not heard a single complaint about those. And if these are not actually "must have or you'll always looose" cards, then yes it may seem sucky to you, but not to everyone. And as you say, the market will decide what is and isn't a good idea.


Avatars, even if they are one-of-a-kind, don't actually affect the gameplay of Alteil itself. At all. They are purely decoration, and while they are appreciated and look rather nice, especially if you have a rare one, they don't affect the balance of the game in the least.



BTW, I didn't want to clutter the page; if I over/underquoted, read the second to last answer of Lupos's last long post.

In response to Lupos's following posts: o.O

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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby lupos » Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:14 pm

Agreed, very few, if any people will ever have every card. This doesnt make things unfair or unbalanced. You never know what your opponenet will have. The EX cards are drastic, but I don't think they are over powered and most people seem to agree, least last i heard around here. So someone not having them doesnt unbalance the game. I've got any card i could want, I don't win all the time. A bit better than half the time if I'm lucky. My point with the avatars is the fustration of not having those cards should really be even less than the avatars. At least you had the chance to get them if you want. You could spend a ton of money and never get exactly the card you want from the packs. And as for people who join later, there will be new expansions that deal with balancing as well and probably re-releases or EX lottery. So far it's a non issue. And until they go away and we discover, as dan is concerned, that things have become unbalanced, everyone just seems to be giving them selves carple tunel for no good reason. We all have heard both side of this a great deal already.

Why don't you play the game, as it seems to be pretty darn good at the moment, and, if at some point it becomes not so good, let us know. I think i've answered most every concern raised, though I'll keep checking to see if anyone brings up anything new.
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