Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby Xovian » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:16 pm

DanTheTimid wrote:
xovian1 wrote:You say potential negatives. What's a negative to you will be positives for others.

Wait, what? What about my negatives could be construed as positives for others?


For those that actually bought them like me...that spell it out for ya well enough?
Name one negative to those who bought em then. Yea.
Just because you see it as a negative doesn't mean everyone does.

Think Lupos summed up the rest of it nicely enough.

DanTheTimid wrote:people who agree remain silent often because they feel they have nothing further to add
Wow, that's awfully presumptuous. So because only a few people disagree and no one else comments the must support your side?


Yes, this comment made me laugh. :lol:
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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby azarael » Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:07 am

xovian1 wrote:For those that actually bought them like me...that spell it out for ya well enough?
Name one negative to those who bought em then. Yea.


I can name one: You might have a permanent advantage. Winning can become boring, y'know. Part of the game is the fun of playing someone with the same approximate skill level and amount of resources.

Lupos: Thanks for the reply. :D

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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby Xovian » Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:27 am

azarael wrote:I can name one: You might have a permanent advantage. Winning can become boring, y'know. Part of the game is the fun of playing someone with the same approximate skill level and amount of resources.


Given my win/loss record, I think that would suffice just to show HOW far off that remark is.
I pretty much stay at a rank of 1400's.
If you think the cards for the EX are that game changing, go buy them.
My point?
I can guarantee you won't be coming back here saying how each and everyone one of them altered every game you played and made you win where others didn't have them. It's just a farce, and is a massive excuse. It's just another whine by the "have nots" vs the "haves", and as i see it thats all this discussion is. I've got files with and with out them, and I can attest, it isn't gonna matter all that much. Cause you win some and loose some regardless.

Skill and Luck (luck being the random generator) will always beat out Cards and Strategy. Cause no matter what you have in a file, take it to the bank the random generator can smile on you or pass judgement against you. Ever seen those units you have relentlessly attack another unit that has enough defense to completely negate the attack? Repeatedly? So far my best streak of that is 8 in a row. I've heard worse too, just hadnt had it happen to me yet. You can use strategy all you want, but if the strategy gets hit by random numbers, all the planning in the world can mean nothing. Thats just the way the game works sometimes.

As to playing the same skill level, yea, thats why i keep facing people with 1900's for a rank.
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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby Phades » Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:37 pm

xovian1 wrote:
azarael wrote:I can name one: You might have a permanent advantage. Winning can become boring, y'know. Part of the game is the fun of playing someone with the same approximate skill level and amount of resources.


Given my win/loss record, I think that would suffice just to show HOW far off that remark is.
I pretty much stay at a rank of 1400's.
If you think the cards for the EX are that game changing, go buy them.
My point?
I can guarantee you won't be coming back here saying how each and everyone one of them altered every game you played and made you win where others didn't have them. It's just a farce, and is a massive excuse. It's just another whine by the "have nots" vs the "haves", and as i see it thats all this discussion is. I've got files with and with out them, and I can attest, it isn't gonna matter all that much. Cause you win some and loose some regardless.

Skill and Luck (luck being the random generator) will always beat out Cards and Strategy. Cause no matter what you have in a file, take it to the bank the random generator can smile on you or pass judgement against you. Ever seen those units you have relentlessly attack another unit that has enough defense to completely negate the attack? Repeatedly? So far my best streak of that is 8 in a row. I've heard worse too, just hadnt had it happen to me yet. You can use strategy all you want, but if the strategy gets hit by random numbers, all the planning in the world can mean nothing. Thats just the way the game works sometimes.

As to playing the same skill level, yea, thats why i keep facing people with 1900's for a rank.

Sounds more and more like someone who thinks they should win because they spent more money only. But since you have spent the money, why arent you packing answers to those problems? Your loss rate is your own fault and those that don't have answers because they haven't or are unable to accumulate gran fast enough is not their fault by playing the game. All it does is drive the growing pattern of people who only play mirage master, so they can earn more cards eventually.
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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby DanTheTimid » Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:37 pm

So to sum up the gist of your response Lupos, and correct me if I'm wrong, "We're not taking any suggestions for this game, the game has lasted for 4 years in Japan and thus we trust their decisions over any suggestion a player might make". A pretty depressing response, but I do understand the logic behind it, any suggestion I might make is taking a chance, staying down the proven path is the safe way to go. I think the Japanese did alot right with this game, so much right that even if they did do a few things that were (in my personal opinion) wrong (such as limited time only cards or only rewarding people who are successful which has caused many who aren't winning to give up on alteil and only play mirage master) the game was still able to be a success. I never intended to change everything, only to suggest ways to take a formula for success and tweak a few small things to, again only in my opinion, make the formula better. But it is just my opinion and now knowing your stance I shall keep in mind in the future that suggesting changes to the game is a futile waste of both of our time.

Will I be quitting the game, if you'd asked me yesterday I would have told you yes, several responses you made to my post seemed to be borderline personal attacks and really offended me, but as I always do when I'm feeling frustrated I slept on it and reread some of your responses today and found one that really brightened my outlook.

lupos wrote:...if/when there is an EX lottery it will most likely be permanent.


Its still an "if" and its still a "most likely" but the response is more or less providing a very very subtle confirmation which is all I ever asked for. Its kind of ironic that I had to dig through the responses to find this cause honestly if I'd just received that response and nothing else from the start this whole issue would have closed a while ago. However I get the feeling you find me, or at least my posts, rather annoying and thus couldn't resist dissecting and denouncing nearly every part of them.

I could leave it at that but just for the sake of defending myself against some of the posts I took exception too...

lupos wrote:
DanTheTimid wrote:people who agree remain silent often because they feel they have nothing further to add


Wow, that's awfully presumptuous. So because only a few people disagree and no one else comments they must support your side?


No... not sure where you got that impression or a "must" out of that sentence. "Often" means not always, there are times when its not the case, it simply means in my experience there have been times where that was the case. This is also a pretty nasty choice of quote since that quote was talking about my past posts, not this specific post, if you had quoted my line about this specific post it was:

DanTheTimid wrote:The fact the majority of posters so far have supported me this time makes me wonder if perhaps there are far more people then usual...


"Makes me wonder", "Perhaps", these words don't sound to me like some one whose convinced of anything, yet you portray me as an presumptuous idiot confident that my statement is fact. :(

Whats more, from that same quote you did use you only used the second half of the quote, the first part of the quote you conveniently left out was:

DanTheTimid wrote:I'm cognitive of the fact I'm just one person, my having an opinion does not mean every player shares my opinion, however I have found in the past


I specifically went out of my way to point out that I didn't feel people necessarily shared my opinion and made it clear the comment you quoted was not a comment about how things are all the time but a commentary on my own past experiences. Its like you went out of your way to make me sound as bad as possible. I have to say I was pretty offended. Still if that's truly the feeling you got from that paragraph I apologize, I neither feel that most people agree with me (infact my usual assumption is that everyone doesn't) nor meant to imply such.

Lupos wrote:And you didn't have to spend a dime. Aside from that, if you really want them, go walk someone's dog after hours. Make a lemonade stand, buy the cards. If you don't get them now, they will most likely reappear at some point, but it might be a while. So really it's not that you'll never get them, just that you might have to wait a while. Early bird gets the worm so to speak.

Response after response from you continue to make me wonder if I failed to effectively convey my concern in this thread to you. My concern is not with the cost of the packs. I'm not sure why why you keep bringing up things related to money. My concern is not that their leaving temporarily. I wish they weren't but I can definitely live with the fact they are. My concern has always been and only been whether or not the cards will be leaving forever or if future players (and players who miss out now) will have ways to get them in the future. If the answer is yes, as you seem to be implying, then that was all you needed to say. Patronizing me by telling me to walk dogs or run a lemonade stand to make money is not only kind of cruel, but completely pointless in a post of this type. Please save your mean spirited "L2notBPoor" comments for threads with people complaining about the price.


Lupos wrote:
DanTheTimid wrote:They've made the statement before that they intend for every card you own to always be useful, that means they won't be releasing cards in the future that obsolete cards released now (a policy I'm very happy for). It also means the EX cards can only ever grow more useful, not less useful. Other cards may have similar effects, but by this policy, they won't ever cause these EX cards to lose their usefulness which means people who miss out on these EX cards are forever missing out on access to useful cards.


Seriously? Would you be happier if they eventually were useless? You know, some people only ever play one color deck and recycle all the other cards they get. I.E 3/4 of all the cards will never be useful to them. Less they play a multi-color deck of course but that's still a minority of players so far. Should all their cards some day suck because you don't use them? I know I'm over extrapolating here but this just seems like silly logic to me.


Perhaps it seems like silly logic because again it seems the point I was making was not made clear enough. If you look at the quote I was responding to I was responding to a comment claiming that I shouldn't care if I don't have EX cards because there is a chance in the future cards will be released that will be better then these EX cards. I thus pointed out how the goal of the game is to not allow any cards to be better then others, to make all cards useful, and thus ex cards will always be useful. Within the quote I even said "(a policy I'm very happy for)" clearly stating that I'm very happy that cards will always be useful so I really don't know how you could make the statement "would you be happier if they eventually were useless" in response to that quote.

lupos wrote:However now that you mention it, depending on the number of EX cards we have when that time comes, certain ones may not always be in circulation. You see, the EX cards fix Lebeau, even for those who don't buy them, simply by existing. But the only way they do that is if a bunch of people have them. Now, if we didn't limit the length of their availability people might not have rushed out and bought them and Lebeau would still be over used. Maybe. As for the time limit, well, we have been saying all along that the first full expansion should be next month. If I'm not mistaken the EX cards are available until early October. Soooo.... one would assume the expansion would also deal with the Lebeau issue. Then, it's no longer an issue, unless of course you just really want the angel cards but don't have money. In which case... tough? :/

I admit I don't really understand your logic as to why certain cards will not always be in circulation. As for whether or not the EX cards fix the Lebeau situation, thats a debate worthy of its own topic (infact I'm willing to be it probably has been made some where around here already) so I'm not going to address it here.

Lupos wrote:But we do have the problem of making things more desirable as well as keeping things new and exciting. Rare = desirable. Limited time = exciting. They've been doing this a long time in Japan and it's worked rather well for them. So, it's what we are trying out. If they're right then it's what we will keep doing. If you're right, we will look into ways to improve.


If you ask me, rare = desirable, limited time = annoying. There are lots of reasons a card could be exciting but in general, and in my opinion, an exciting card is one that has a really uniquely powerful effect. Its balanced with the existing cards, but it helps accomplish victory in a way completely different to what we're used to. Thus you don't make a card exciting by making it limited time, you make it exciting by coming up with ingenious new gameplay mechanics that change the way we think about how a card should work.

My main concern with this statement though is how you would ever come to the conclusion that I was right and they weren't. Like if the game is losing money every month then you'd look into trying my suggestions, but as long as your in the black you'll stick with them? There are so many factors that can effect a game's success it can be nearly impossible to determine how much of an impact any single factor is having. If the cards were truly limited (and you've given me some comments that suggest other wise thankfully) I think it would have a negative impact on the game and your profits in the long run, but since I believe the effect would be over the long term I'm not really sure how noticeable the effect would be on any given week or month.


Lupos wrote:
DanTheTimid wrote:I whole heartedly agree with this, regardless of your size it doesn't make limited time only cards any more or less negative for the game.


That is assuming you are correct.


Correct about what? All I did was agree with you there. I didn't even actually say limited time only cards would have a negative effect, just that size had no baring on it. Perhaps there was a mild implification there that limited time only cards were inherently negative for the game, but it was hardly the point of the comment. I get the feeling you're just trying to disagree with and discredit everything I say, which is kind of funny in a situation like this where I was actually agreeing with you. Still I apologize if I offended you so deeply that you feel the need to attack everything I say in this manner... :cry:

Lupos wrote:
DanTheTimid wrote:Again comparing to real card games doesn't fly


Sure it does, as there are plenty of comparisons to make. Comparison implying assessing their likenesses and differences. Acting as if they are exactly the same would be silly. But they are worth comparing for the sake of discussion and for relating ideas to people.


True, but I felt it doesn't fly for the specific comparison you were trying to make which I was responding to with that quote and I explained in detail why I felt that way. You seem to be making a logical fallacy, just because some comparisons are reasonable it does not follow that all comparisons are reasonable.

Lupos wrote:Also, I didn't say Alteil was the first or only to give you a free starter, but it is rare in real world games. As for all the other ones you've played, please do list them. We are always looking into what our competition is doing so if you know some one don't know of I'd be glad to check them out.

Just off the top of my head, Urban Rivals is a decently successful one (which is impressive because their art is pretty amateurish). Ederon (or something like that) was another one (they're set up actually pretty similar to alteil really) but when I left them they weren't very successful, they were suffering from the same problem alteil was with difficulty finding opponents that eventually caused me to lose interest and leave the game.

Lupos wrote:It's understandable. I see your point, but what do you say when they see your alpha/beta avatar? I've not heard a single complaint about those. And if these are not actually "must have or you'll always looose" cards, then yes it may seem sucky to you, but not to everyone. And as you say, the market will decide what is and isn't a good idea.


Because of the nature of this decision, with its effects being more long term then short term, it can be really hard for the market to decide anything because it can be hard to pinpoint what the actual effects of it were even a year from now. As for why beta avatars don't bother people like missing cards do... I think its because alteil tends to draw more card players then it does art aficionados. To some one obsessed with art, having access to all the art might be a big thing, but to the average card player I've found its generally not a big concern. I don't speak for all card players, only myself and ones I've specifically known/talked too over my 10 or so years I've been playing card games, but in general what matters to many of them is simply that they have access to all the cards they want to make their ideal deck. For many players, that ideal deck very well might never include any EX card and this will be a non issue to them. But for some their ideal deck very well may include an EX card they don't have access to anymore and for them this would be a HUGE deal.

Is that a small portion of your player base? Maybe it is. Maybe you won't see significant negative effects from it. But it seemed to me allowing those players access to the cards again via the lottery would make everyone happy and not alienate anyone, so it seemed like one of those win win situations. If you can avoid alienating any players it seemed like something you'd want to do. That was why I made this thread hoping for confirmation that a permanent ex lottery would be added and allow those players to avoid alienation.

Lupos wrote:
DanTheTimid wrote:I worry that I can some times come off as overly critical, harsh, or haughty on the boards at times and its nice to know there are those who still appreciate my long rants in spite of that.


You certainly can seem that way ;)

My sincere apologies for that, I truly do not intend to come off that way and I shall try harder in the future to avoid giving that impression. My intention is not to bother anyone but simply to be a useful contributor to the game and forum.
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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby lupos » Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:23 pm

Another doozy! I can't respond properly to this at the moment but I will get back to you tonight after work some time. In the meantime, I'd like to apologize if I seem offensive or dismissive. I do really care what people have to say but these mile long threads that only cover a few key things are a bit exasperating. Also I try and bring a little levity to the situation, it is a game, but as is always the case with text based communication if I don't pepper every other line with smiley faces and what not it's far too easy to take things badly.

As for taking input or suggestions, we love them, and we do consider them, some more than others. And if we do feel very strongly about them we suggest them to the guys in japan. But you've got to understand the situation we are in. Some things we can control like which cards go on mouse pads we sell when merchandise goes live. And some things we don't control directly. Card balance, card availability and such. Heck even when it comes to merchandise we don't fully own the rights to merchandise with all of the art. some of them would require extra licensing to do it and may therefore never appear on any merch.

At the moment there is only one guy who really has final yes and no on just about everything we do here and that is our good Friend Miyamoto Sensei. He's very smart, very hard working, and very reasonable. So while I'm confident he will do the right thing, whatever that ends up being, I can't swear to you right now that there will be an EX lottery and I certainly can't give you a time frame on it's launch.

And just to touch on the overall feel of this conversation I have to say that walking into this thread, after having had a very long and busy several days while GGG is laid up and working a 4 man show with only 3 people was again rather exasperating. I feel like we are about as open and honest with everyone here as we can be in hopes that you are all more understanding when we do have our issues. I felt like the whole "we kind of have to do what Japan says for now" thing has been made clear in other threads and yet I come here and find an already 3 page long thread discussing something that really and truthfully can't be answered. There's no reason why anyone should assume we wouldn't one day have an EX lottery. You know it exists in Japan and that we do what they do and say. Why is this even a pressing question for you? So I try and answer as best I can, without potentially effing myself in the long run and I felt like my entire post was misconstrued and further complained about.

Anyway, at the end of the day, I still don't think the limited availability of those cards is somehow worse than the difficulty in procuring any card in the game. Just different. And while you may not like it plenty of people think it's fine. I could give you very long list of people who seem to be ok with it.

Last thing before I get back to work, my editing of your quotes was not intended to misrepresent them but just to focus on the part I was referring to without making an even longer post than it was already going to be. And people can of course always read the original post for context. If I seemed to be creatively editing it, that was not my intent. Apologies for that.
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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby azarael » Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:47 pm

azarael wrote:I can name one: You might have a permanent advantage. Winning can become boring, y'know. Part of the game is the fun of playing someone with the same approximate skill level and amount of resources.

Given my win/loss record, I think that would suffice just to show HOW far off that remark is.
I pretty much stay at a rank of 1400's.
If you think the cards for the EX are that game changing, go buy them.


This makes me think that you missed the whole point of the quoted part of my post, which was that one might elect not to buy them, in the interest of game balance. Personally, one of the reasons that I elect to not buy cards for Alteil is this: Buying cards gives an spontaneous advantage to Iczers who have more real-world resources. Money does not equal skill at playing Alteil. I like to win because I played the game more efficiently with the cards I have, not because I have better cards than the opponent.

My point?
I can guarantee you won't be coming back here saying how each and everyone one of them altered every game you played and made you win where others didn't have them.


I don't mean to be patronizing, but let me count how many all-encompassing words you put into that statement: 'each and everyone', 'every' (game). Of course I couldn't make that statement; if there was even a single outliar, even a single game in which a set of eight cards did not settle alone who won the game, the statement would be false.

It's just a farce, and is a massive excuse.It's just another whine by the "have nots" vs the "haves", and as i see it thats all this discussion is.


If I wanted the cards that badly, wouldn't an easy solution be to simply pay up and buy them? And if I didn't have the money necessary at the time, why wouldn't you allow me to buy them at a later time, as opposed to me not buying them at all?


Skill and Luck (luck being the random generator) will always beat out Cards and Strategy. Cause no matter what you have in a file, take it to the bank the random generator can smile on you or pass judgement against you. Ever seen those units you have relentlessly attack another unit that has enough defense to completely negate the attack? Repeatedly? So far my best streak of that is 8 in a row. I've heard worse too, just hadnt had it happen to me yet. You can use strategy all you want, but if the strategy gets hit by random numbers, all the planning in the world can mean nothing. Thats just the way the game works sometimes.


It seems as if you might be implying that the random number generator completely nullifies any sort of balance in the created cards, reducing it to all so much random chance? If you don't mean to say that a card cannot be overpowered by the 'luck' component of the game, this doesn't have much bearing on the subject.

As to playing the same skill level, yea, thats why i keep facing people with 1900's for a rank.


What I said was "same approximate skill level." I don't claim that people don't like a challenge, only that you would like to play someone you have a chance of beating. Also, if you were of an inherently lower skill level, then you would have no chance of winning, as according to yourself, Skill and Luck will always beat Cards and Strategy. It should also be noted that this is moot, at least as long as you play in Folrart. You really don't have a choice who you play, unless you hit the 'Give up' button whenever you don't want to play someone.

I'll likely type up something on the Lupos/Dan argument later. :P

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Edited because I messed up the quotes at some point.
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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby DanTheTimid » Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:40 pm

I think this thread can be closed/locked at this point, the main point of topic has been answered as best as it can be. Thanks again to everyone who gave support and Lupos for doing his best to provide me with the best answer he could.

Oh and my apologies to those who actually took the time to read through my massive posts.
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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby arfort » Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:52 pm

Seriously, I want my two hours back. :P
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Re: Confirmation on US getting EX Lottery?

Postby Phades » Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:54 pm

arfort wrote:Seriously, I want my two hours back. :P

lol who is going to stab him first for that? Hmm, perhaps that is too harsh and just give a vigerous poking instead... ><;
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