So who is the SP generator Sphere?

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So who is the SP generator Sphere?

Postby DanTheTimid » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:58 pm

I could have sworn way back when, prior to the games launch, that we were told refess would be the sp generator sphere. It was basically Refesses speciality along with healing/high hp to help it compete with gowen specializing in cheap instant damage, high attack and high speed, falkow in cheap speed manipulation, varied unit stats, and unit bouncing (returning), and lawtia with sp degen, reviving units, and instant unit KO'ing.

All I see Refess having though is healing and high hp, neither of which are really all that great a thing to have and a large part of why refess has struggled so much (hurray for Holy Dragon and Coatl finally allowing refess to make a competitive showing). In the first set it seemed like gowen actually got the better sp generator in Archer Scout, generating sp easier then Kessaran Passaran, and coming out with out needing to save up like Light Chaser / Advent. Still Refess had 2 units that generated sp so even if they didn't do it great, atleast they did it more then anyone else (and gowen was usually moving to fast to worry about sp generation). The ex pack seemed like it was finally going to turn things around for refess, starting them down the path of sp generation with its angel... but with endless morning being neither acquirable for the non-super wealthy nor all that competitive she hasn't really been much of an sp generator.

Then set 2 hit, surely they'd finally get that big sp boost now. Ha. I'd argue that with set 2, falkow is now the best sp generator sphere. Refess got only a single sp generator, Recovery Powder, which generates only +1sp for a level 3 and has an extra effect that is rarely useful. Falkow got 2 new sp generators. First theres Owl Sage, he's as good at generating sp as archer scout, but he's level 1 like the puff balls, arguably allowing him to take over the crown as the new sp generating unit king. Then theirs Meaning in Failure, for the same level as Recovery Powder it gives you either +1 sp or +2sp. That means at worst its generating as much as recovery power, half the time its generating twice as much. Most of the popular high level decks I've seen tend to use these sp generating cards when you have nothing on the field (since your saving up for your big boys) so atleast for those type of cards files MiF is just straight superior to RP.

But what of Gowen? They got Rapid Growth, pretty much the same as Recovery Powder in usefulness so they remained about even with Refess just like they were in the first set.

And Lawtia? They previously had no sp generation, and it made sense, they were the sp degen sphere after all. Well they, like falkow, also got 2 new sp generating cards. Soul Pact is probably the second most useful of the level 3 +1 sp cards behind Meaning in Failure, I've seen its +ATK help QUITE alot. Ancient Zombie Lord... well... ok he's probably the weakest and worst of all sp generators but its still pretty silly that Lawtia has anything to generate sp at all.

So long story short... who is the SP generator Sphere? Wasn't it supposed to be refess, or is my memory just going wacky on me? Right now I'd argue its Falkow, followed by a tie between gowen and refess, and then followed by Lawtia though even lawtia can generate surprisingly well. Conversely, can anyone sp degen even close to as well as lawtia and their units like Shade can?

If Refess is the weakest sphere overall as many still believe it to be, maybe this is why. While all the other spheres clearly still are the best at what they do best, what I thought was supposed to be one of the biggest advantages for Refess seems to be something all the spheres instead share almost equally. Infact with set 2, it actually seems like Falkow's sp generating cards are superior to Refess'. Did I hear wrong way back then about refess being the sp generating sphere or is this a different path the Japanese are trying to take with the english game, taking away the sp generation prowess of Refess and spreading it around equally to every sphere instead. If so, shouldn't refess have some new area they are superior at to the other spheres they didn't have in the Japanese game to compensate?
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Re: So who is the SP generator Sphere?

Postby teasel » Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:41 pm

eeehhh even assuming refess had better SP generator to what would they have to spend it on? the grimoire and SS are already good enough to bring out at least 2 level 7 unit... that's around 21 SP spent...
tough while i'm here i want to say i'm annoyed that again they have decided to change card around again! in the japanese version,recovery powder was just a small heal at level 1,high growth had the same effect of will o wisp at level 2,soul pact did generate SP but it required you to sacrifice a creature (level 1) and meaning of failure could net you 1,2 or 3 SP (and was a level 1... which means it could effectively fail) the owl also just retrieved card from your graveyard
again why the changes?
i remember when the game started the mod reassured everyone that they only changed the SS around because everyone played the same... not only everybody ended up playing the same SS in their deck but they had to change other pricey card around to try to counter the problem when they could just have nerfed the card
i mean just look at the japanese crasher
https://login.alteil.jp/cardDB/detail.php?id=151
i'm pretty sure if i do play a cards in magic it's the same in both the american version and the japanese version... why not here?
heck it's not even the change that annoys me,it's how nobody seems to tell you why the change was made and what change was made
Last edited by teasel on Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So who is the SP generator Sphere?

Postby EvilGenius » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:20 am

Refess has the best SP generator: putting units out to die like lambs so you get the SP back. :lol:
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Re: So who is the SP generator Sphere?

Postby Romdeau » Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:05 am

EvilGenius wrote:Refess has the best SP generator: putting units out to die like lambs so you get the SP back. :lol:

Baaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh....oh wait, haste soldier does that too.
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Re: So who is the SP generator Sphere?

Postby Snikkerz » Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:59 am

No one ever mentions Light Chaser / Advent (because it is a 5 star rare) but it really is the best SP generator in the game, and it's refess.
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Re: So who is the SP generator Sphere?

Postby Grain » Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:59 am

Snikkerz wrote:No one ever mentions Light Chaser / Advent (because it is a 5 star rare) but it really is the best SP generator in the game, and it's refess.


It doesn't count.

I wish it could count, but, no.
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Re: So who is the SP generator Sphere?

Postby EvilGenius » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:54 am

Grain wrote:
Snikkerz wrote:No one ever mentions Light Chaser / Advent (because it is a 5 star rare) but it really is the best SP generator in the game, and it's refess.


It doesn't count.

I wish it could count, but, no.


Indeed. We don't mention the Easter Bunny around here. Only David Bowie.
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Re: So who is the SP generator Sphere?

Postby DanTheTimid » Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:40 am

Snikkerz wrote:No one ever mentions Light Chaser / Advent (because it is a 5 star rare) but it really is the best SP generator in the game, and it's refess.


I did mention Advent in my comparison, he does count, he just isn't all that great. Although there are a number of reasons probably the biggest problem is that Advent is level 3. Yes you get refunded that cost when he dies but in the short term that puts you at a sp disadvantage. Also at level 3 that means he costs a turn and a half (you get 2sp a turn) worth of sp to play him. That means you've either got to save up to play him, or you've already got to generate sp from another source. Both of which can be trouble, especially if your facing sp degen like shades or significant revival costs every turn (and you do need to be reviving things cause with AGI 2 you need to protect him with other units if you hope to even get his ability to go off). As if that wasn't enough, he's also got no range (as does the refess angel, another thing that hurts her playability in non eternal morning). This means he can never contritbute to battle unless every unit in front of him is first destroyed, even if hitting a single target for 10 would be more helpful at that point then another sp (a situation that has occured with the puff balls many times for me). Honestly theres a sort of sick irony to the fact they gave him so much attack when refess had such huge attack problems in set 1, yet he's a unit who will almost never actually get to attack.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Advent is horrible, he's still a decent sp generator, I just don't consider him the best for the reasons I just listed.
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Re: So who is the SP generator Sphere?

Postby Phades » Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:03 pm

DanTheTimid wrote:
Snikkerz wrote:No one ever mentions Light Chaser / Advent (because it is a 5 star rare) but it really is the best SP generator in the game, and it's refess.


I did mention Advent in my comparison, he does count, he just isn't all that great. ... This means he can never contritbute to battle unless every unit in front of him is first destroyed, even if hitting a single target for 10 would be more helpful at that point then another sp (a situation that has occured with the puff balls many times for me). Honestly theres a sort of sick irony to the fact they gave him so much attack when refess had such huge attack problems in set 1, yet he's a unit who will almost never actually get to attack.

The fact he can't contribute to battle while generating SP is why he fails. A level 3 unit needs to fight and stay in the match, or it is just using that SP to bring cards back in the revive phase, while not affecting the overal field control which is the single most important thing in this game. It really doesn't matter if your opponent has unlimited sp if they can't keep a single unit on the field alive each turn.

The refress angel Weissvogel seemed rather promising with her SP generation being automatic. If the player could find space for the solar prince as well, while splashing falkow for invisible edge, she would make a decent overal 2nd row unit generating +1sp every turn and contributing to battle with the solar prince helping the clean damage like he always does with your holy dragon and coatl beating the snot out of people. Outside of this instance, i feel that refress can't be considered having any kind of advantage in generating SP.

Falkow can wipe SP like lawita now with wrath of the constallations, but succubus, shade, dragon emperor are all arguably more efficient at doing so. Hell even the lawita dragon in conjunction with a mad priest seems rather strong in theory as well for helping ensure a win condition.
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Re: So who is the SP generator Sphere?

Postby DanTheTimid » Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:52 pm

Exactly, thats the thing, its ok for one or two of the other spheres to dabble into the strengths of the other spheres... they just shouldn't be able to do it nearly as well. Wrath of constellations gives Falkow some sp degen, but it comes at a high level,effects both players equally, and doesn't generate any field presence. Its not a useless card cause if your worried about an opponent building up too much sp WoC is better then nothing, but most of the time Lawtia's options for sp degeneration are superior and come easier.

Another way to look at it is you wouldn't run Falkow just for WoC, if you wanted to run a sp degen theme deck you'd run Lawtia because they have the most and best sp degen options, WoC is just something a player who wants to use Falkow for other reasons (like maybe their ability to Return things) might look into. It seems to me like it should be the same way with sp generation, if Refess is supposed to be the sp generator sphere they should be the sphere you immediatly lean toward if sp generation is your goal... however right now that doesn't really seem to be the case. Their only impressive sp generation comes from a 2 card combo involving a limited time only ex card and a 5 star rarity card, thus a combo that only the ludicrously rich (or just very rich and very lucky) could afford to even try to run. Outside of that combo the other clans all have cards that arguably generate sp just as well if not in some cases better then the Refess cards do.
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