How useless will the current cards be ... ?

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How useless will the current cards be ... ?

Postby Peralisc2 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:06 pm

Just checked a totally random video on youtube and was wondering how useless will the current card be when later sets will get out?
(link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9_BGRGK3GU)
The cards won't really lose much of their current value, but something makes me think that the newer sets will be better. Only very few of the current strategies will still be viable when those new cards get released because they are ment to change the game somehow, so with more cards come more ways of breaking combos. Am i wrong :?:
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Alteil is pretty much well balanced. Sometimes you loose and sometimes the enemy wins.
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Re: How useless will the current cards be ... ?

Postby Candi » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:13 pm

There is a general fear of a power creep over sets, however comparison to the Japanese Alteil is tricky because often cards are different in this version of the game. (see Will o' the Wisp for a prime example).

Yes every new set brings with it new combo breakers (re: corruption in this set is viably useful on any level 3+ unit to convert it into a level 2 unit!), but of course it brings with it new cards that could be implemented in your main file to make it better (my Noirweiden file got 100 times better with set 2). And there are files from set 1 that still run amok (re: Gowen Rush). So every set changes things, yes, but hopefully new sets don't negate the usefulness of old ones!
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Re: How useless will the current cards be ... ?

Postby DanTheTimid » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:26 pm

Well based on set 1 and 2 there have been good signs and bad signs. On one hand I'd argue none of the new level 1s are even as good as let alone better then the amazing level 1s everyone but refess had in set 1. On the flip side several grimoires seem better then set 1 grimoires and most of the high level units seem better then the set 1 high level units. Then theirs the already powerful 1lp soul cards from set 1 that are now 2lp cards (alphonse anyone).

Regardless of whether or not they do power creep though one nice thing about this game is that they always have the option to change cards later. Even if their is power creep they can always go back and make the obseleted old cards a little stronger to compensate. From what I understand the Japanese game has changed cards from all the sets including the first ones many times trying to obtain better balance.
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Re: How useless will the current cards be ... ?

Postby Phades » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:28 am

DanTheTimid wrote:Regardless of whether or not they do power creep though one nice thing about this game is that they always have the option to change cards later.
Well they haven't bothered to adjust set 1 refress yet, so i wouldn't hold my breath for that. It may have been premature for logress to mention that over 2 months ago, but still it is disheartening.

At least they are attempting to clarify awkward wording styles common within the card sets though to make interpretation and planning easier.
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Re: How useless will the current cards be ... ?

Postby Mirth » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:29 pm

Always a good question.

The series 2 cards in some ways opened up the field for higher-level monsters/spells with the inclusion of +mana spells (Meaning of Failure, etc.) and cards with SS abilities that would increase your sphere by +3 (Magic Doll -Support-, etc.). Dragons have become pretty common and you see Merciless Death used more often.

However in the process you saw less use of the mana-producing creatures (Kesaran Pasaran, etc.)

It also introduced several cards that would set your mana=0 as Action Skills, Opening Skills, etc. (Lawtia - Succubus, Dark Emperor / Zu-jyuva, etc.)

Newer cards with better abilities replaced older cards... and there was a shift of players toward Gowen and especially Lawtia decks.

You can see the 3rd set for Refess and Lawtia at: http://sase.web.fc2.com/aleng.html - (after that the links are broken). Anyone know of another site out there to check out translations of current Japanese Alteil sets?

As for the 3rd set ones currently posted... Lawtia example: Warning Knife = 2 mana Corruption w/o changing DF. Sets HP and Max HP to 10. Nasty. Will probably be THE CARD to mess with Regenerating Decks (Norwedian, Zombie Master, etc.).

I'm personally hoping to see some additional balance with 3-4+ "must have" creature and spell cards in the next set for each sphere (hopefully mostly at 3 star or below).

MMmmmm... Dalos.

Sincerely, Mirth ;loading
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Re: How useless will the current cards be ... ?

Postby Candi » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:50 pm

A note about that link Mirth - those are not current **** cards.

That site fell out of repair end of set 3 (as you can tell by broken links). The only reliable source for current Japanese cards is the Japanese alteil site card database, which is also not a reliable prediction for what cards we get because some of are cards are neither what the Japanese cards used to be or what they are now (Will o' the Wisp).

That said, every new set will change how things interact. Old combos and files may become useless in light of newer tricks and cards that make a certain strategy more difficult to play in light of whats out there in the wide world of meta. However, new cards bring new combos and tricks and files with them.

So power creep? It's difficult to predict. Set 2 was not a strict power creep, set 2 cards are powerful and useful yes - but they did not dominate set 1 out of existence. Set 2 files still use set 1 cards and set 1 files still succeed in the game. Heck, the most theoretically competitive Falkow file out there is set 1.
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Re: How useless will the current cards be ... ?

Postby kitsunekit » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:31 am

Every card game has power creeps though. Even magic (the oldest still played card game).

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDet ... x?&id=2884
8 Mana for a 7/7. You gotta pay 3 each turn (so effectively -3 land), but you can pump it.

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDet ... ?&id=23208
6 mana for a 6/6. No upkeep. Plus an added burn effect.

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDet ... &id=175057
6 mana for a 8/8. No upkeep. Plus pumpable. Plus 2 extra keywords.

See how the second dragon is substantially (although arguably) better than the first? And note how the 3rd is better than the other two combined?

Or for another example:

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDet ... px?&id=269
1 for a 2/1.

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDet ... ?&id=79217
1 for a 2/2

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDet ... &id=174963
1 for a 1/1 that is a 2/2 attacking alone or can give +1/+1 to another creature attacking alone (helping your late game better).

Yes, while one can argue the hound and the Squire have their advantages and disadvantages, in most games the squire is the superior card. even if its not necessarily the MOST superior card, it IS a common, whereas the hound is a rare legend (kind of like a "character" in our game) and the squire just a regular common creature...

For an easier example:

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDet ... x?&id=4300
A 2/2 for 2.

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDet ... &id=153139
A 2/2 for 2 that gives your creatures with +1/+1 counters trample and that gives all warriors you play +1/+1 counters.

But grizzly bears was never really that good ...

Anyways, its inevitable that some newer cards will be stronger than some older cards. Therefore, its inevitable that eventually all older cards will be semi-phased out by newer cards...UNLESS!

->The newer cards look at new mechanics and gameplay ideas (such as keywords, alternative costs, alternative stradegies, etc...) that make them different from any older cards that may be similiar (for example, a 2/2 creature that gets +1/+1 if you have 5 or more cards in your hand vs. a 2/2 creature that gets +1/+1 if you have 7 or more cards in your graveyard. Very tricky to think of which is better).

->The older cards are ERRATA'D! Which I think we should do in this game as we can actually errata without the confusion of "but the card says something different printed...". Its always a tricky issue though, as it confuses a lot of players even when the game is 100% virtual...but its certainly better thana "we gotta develop cards to counter-stradegy X or Y", since sometimes that "broken stradegy of X and/or Y" may have some SIMILIAR stradegies in older cards your making useless by making cards to counter-act them.

Is that confusing?

Here's an example. Lets say Refess had a defense strategy. It wasn't perfect, but it played pretty well (i.e. 50% win/loss ratio against players of the same skill). Now lets say suddenly lawtia got a card that gave too much defense. So much in fact that unless you had cards that looked beyond DEF or destroyed its defense, it was impossible to stop. After so many misuses, the next set had (in each color) cards that lowered enemy def=0. This seems good, as it stops the unbeatable lawtia card. However, now the old refess defense stradegy (which WAS ok at one point) is now broken. Of course, this could be errata'd and partially fixed by carefully giving these defensive cards effects like Shield or even "[Active] This cards Defense is always minimum X".

I think Magic Doll LP should be set to "2" now that inquisition raid leader is out. It won't de-balance the game really...when have you ever seen a magic doll AND raid leader in the same SC? Do you really think people will pack 5 Magic Doll + Raid leader in their SC? That's the only conceivable reason I could think for Magic Doll still being worth 1 LP...that and laziness :P
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Re: How useless will the current cards be ... ?

Postby Candi » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:06 am

kitsunekit wrote:Every card game has power creeps though. Even magic (the oldest still played card game).

True.

kitsunekit wrote:Here's an example. Lets say Refess had a defense strategy. It wasn't perfect, but it played pretty well (i.e. 50% win/loss ratio against players of the same skill). Now lets say suddenly lawtia got a card that gave too much defense. So much in fact that unless you had cards that looked beyond DEF or destroyed its defense, it was impossible to stop. After so many misuses, the next set had (in each color) cards that lowered enemy def=0. This seems good, as it stops the unbeatable lawtia card. However, now the old refess defense stradegy (which WAS ok at one point) is now broken. Of course, this could be errata'd and partially fixed by carefully giving these defensive cards effects like Shield or even "[Active] This cards Defense is always minimum X".

Poor LeBeau :(

kitsunekit wrote:I think Magic Doll LP should be set to "2" now that inquisition raid leader is out. It won't de-balance the game really...when have you ever seen a magic doll AND raid leader in the same SC? Do you really think people will pack 5 Magic Doll + Raid leader in their SC? That's the only conceivable reason I could think for Magic Doll still being worth 1 LP...that and laziness :P

[/quote]

I don't agree with you at all here. Magic Doll/Combat Monk are 30 Damage row clearing for 1 LP and Raid Leader is 30 damage row clearing for 2 LP, it's nice to have options. There are times when you *want* less LP on certain SC's, even if their effects are identical to SCs with more LP. It's a lot harder to time a 2 LP skill to go when you want than timing a 1 LP skill. Having lots of LP is good, but its pointless if your last 3 LP are lost by Iczer Attack because you ran out of units to have die. There is a certain balance between optimal LP and too much/too little. Having multiple LP options for an effect that you want enables you to work your LP up to the amount you want it while still keeping all of those nice SS's that you wanted as well. No, putting them together is silly (heck running a ton of row clearing is silly) and yes using Crusher, Elena or Thunderbolt are arguably better than Magic Doll - but it's nice to have options.
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Re: How useless will the current cards be ... ?

Postby DanTheTimid » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:47 am

Also keep in mind that as long as one side of the card is still useful there's no real imbalance, you just only use cards like magic doll for their unit side if you feel their soul card side is too weak. At least magic doll's soul card side is more potentially useful then the plethora of 2 LP no soul skill cards we have.

Personally I hate the no soul skill 2 LP cards because I wish they atleast made some attempt at an interesting soul skill, having nothing seems like a lazy cop out, but I have to give them that as long as the unit/character itself is useful, the card is balanced. If we say a card needs to be rebalanced for not having a strong soul skill then every grimoire needs to be rebalanced since they can't even be played as soul cards.
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