Just a consensus...

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Just a consensus...

Postby Xovian » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:30 pm

Had a game recently that went like this:

replay

The game basically becomes a draw at turn 3 or 4.
The opponent knew he was forcing a draw, and stated such since he would get XP and RP from the draw (he was lower in both).

Now my question is, do people agree this is a valid tactic?
People get draws, and even forcing them is sometimes a valid tactic, and even excepted as fair play.
The one with Worthing vs Arakis comes to mind, as an example.
Worthing knew Arakis hadGun Princess' Sword / Mizalio as an SS, and if he kept attacking he would cause himself to loose the game.
Both had lost plenty of LP in the fight to say the least, and the draw didnt actually "occur" until the turns were in the upper 20's.

But in this case what does the game fall under?
-Poor sportsmanship?
-Abuse of a mechanic/system?
-Nothing wrong at all, and perfectly viable for getting free XP/RP?
-Or even the L2P noob?

For me, I found it to be exploitative and aggravating to be forced to go from such an early game to draw so quickly with no hope of even playing, just because the opponent would get XP and RP.
Had I not been higher in both, he wouldn't have chosen to draw the game. (I do have the chat logs but they are forbidden to be posted on the forums, with out consent)
Considering I have EN and could do the exact same thing, it isnt because I don't know that this can be done, but I personally prefer to play games out.

So im just curious to the forum goers abroad, do you feel this was a fair use of a mechanic, or was it exploitative or anything in between?
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby GonFreeces31 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:37 pm

Everything's fair game in love and Alteil. I think this touches more on matters of respect and pride.

I'm not sure how you can have pride in doing something like this, and I'm sure no one will respect such a player.


REAL MEN do not do things like this ;zagar
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby Multi » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:01 pm

well, it does raise to question whether a draw would've been created for almost any other kind of file other than what looks like was going to become some sort of big red/falkow file.

All you had to do was play a unit instead of rapid growth, or play lvl 2's, but since that doesn't fit in your file, that's mostly your fault. You could've even played tidal wave. It's like a bad matchup, except instead of losing, it's brought to a draw.

I think it's a valid tactic, though a bit unsportsmanlike, but if you wouldn't be able to win otherwise, you can lock down your opponent. There's stuff like stalemates and the like in chess, even in starcraft there are ways to force a draw when your only choices lose, draw, or take a 1% chance of a win. The match I saw this happen was where the guy was in a really disadvantageous position, and could never win on offense, so he set up an unbreakable defense and managed his units perfectly in defense so that it was impossible for the opponent to destroy his base. It was quite amusing because his opponent was in a VASTLY superior position, yet couldn't finish him off.

I personally wish there was a way to propose a draw earlier, I made a suggestion a few months back and went into detail on how it could be created so that you wouldn't be able to abuse it for xp and rp or FM, but I forgot whatever happened to that thread.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby TLHM » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:14 pm

lame, but legal.

very lame
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby Peralisc2 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:22 pm

You could play around it and also think gowen offers counters to that for your deck. You just didn't have the right stuff to counter, not in your deck.
Here EX riza proved to be better than eskatia (still prefer eskatia, although you can prevent her opening).


Dragon breath is one of the easier answers he has only 3 succubuses at most, SP banking is another important thing, also with SP banking you end up activating some damage SS if you have any. I don't see it as lame or wrong, because you have gowen with grims anyway so add in 1 dragon breath or even 2? I gotten big red so often played against me, the answer is so obvious. You try to have a second pullermia, so you time better when the proxy dies and you get SP back. You add in some gaia anacondas. It gotten obvious after seeing openings for big red way too often.


Simply the using of certain cards and combos can't be wrong, the way you play ain't the wrong part.

Some stuff are harder to counter, stating it as a fact. You are not the first to be in a situation like "without escape". And there are more of these match ups that create situations without escape. Once you lose control, oponent does what he wants... Without taking sides, they are either all wrong or all fine mechanics and combos.
Personally prefer to have much more flexibility at any point in game, but that's not so easy to obtain in this game.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby Xovian » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:38 pm

Peralisc2 wrote:Some stuff are harder to counter, stating it as a fact. You are not the first to be in a situation like "without escape".

I'm not arguing that this can happen, I'm not even saying it shouldn't happen at times.
My "beef" is that I didn't even get to play.

People have had locked games because of Feline Kin's ability to not be hit (using her as an example because she too is also Gowen).
But that's very different then a game like this for the following reasons:
1> The lock doesn't happen this early in the game, thus both players are still able to "play".
2> Both people are able to field something in games like that, even if they can't do anything with them.
3> Most games that can become locked, do not become locked because a player couldn't even play a level 3.

I've had a lock game because someone used a specific fairy vs one of my files, and they played it well.
However, they were playing the game and not just doing "nothing".
I excepted the loss and even complimented the player, because they did something unique and made it effective and different.

There are some very specific reasons this draw happened, one of which was a conscious decision from the start, and that was to stall and not play it out.
This decision was only concluded because even with a draw, it was a win for them (gain in XP, FM and RP at no cost).
That's what I have a problem with.

Yes there are plenty of counters, but no file can carry all counters...thats just part of the game, so you are correct in the fact it was a game that ended the way it did because i didnt have the counters.
However, the rewards from such a game should not be condoned or encouraged.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby Multi » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:51 pm

Xovian wrote:
Peralisc2 wrote:Some stuff are harder to counter, stating it as a fact. You are not the first to be in a situation like "without escape".

I'm not arguing that this can happen, I'm not even saying it shouldn't happen at times.
My "beef" is that I didn't even get to play.

People have had locked games because of Feline Kin's ability to not be hit (using her as an example because she too is also Gowen).
But that's very different then a game like this for the following reasons:
1> The lock doesn't happen this early in the game, thus both players are still able to "play".
2> Both people are able to field something in games like that, even if they can't do anything with them.
3> Most games that can become locked, do not become locked because a player couldn't even play a level 3.

I've had a lock game because someone used a specific fairy vs one of my files, and they played it well.
However, they were playing the game and not just doing "nothing".
I excepted the loss and even complimented the player, because they did something unique and made it effective and different.

There are some very specific reasons this draw happened, one of which was a conscious decision from the start, and that was to stall and not play it out.
This decision was only concluded because even with a draw, it was a win for them (gain in XP, FM and RP at no cost).
That's what I have a problem with.

Yes there are plenty of counters, but no file can carry all counters...thats just part of the game, so you are correct in the fact it was a game that ended the way it did because i didnt have the counters.
However, the rewards from such a game should not be condoned or encouraged.


I disagree. The file you were probably running is probably considered a pretty strong file. What pera suggests for you to have, or even myself is not something that would completely ruin your file like having to throw in a random miracle fruit, which happens to be gowen anyways. Your opponent's intent has nothing to do with anything because their original intent in using that file was not to bring a match to a draw. The decision was made because it was the most beneficial and most sure way to not incur a loss against your file, which was obviously going to be some sort of big red variant. I think it sends a message to players who use that sort of file that there are real dangers in using it. Having a near 100% sure draw situation isn't any different than having a near 100% loss situation matchup. It's like if a player has no answers against def, they're 100% going to lose. You say a key point is that you didn't even get to play, and not having an answer to def would take longer, but not really. 1st SS 30/30, and if nothing in your file can break that, like only having 40dmg SS and no def breakers and only 30-40at units, then you're screwed as early as turn 3 or 4.

It's clear to me that your opponent just flat out outplayed you in this match xovian by taking advantage in the fact that you felt safe in the standard skip->proxy->sp grim open and that he knew it was coming. If you had played a unit instead of that rapid growth, the stalemate situation would not have occured, or if he had not played flesh recycle it's possible a draw situation would not have occured as well. It's true that the stalemate situation occured extremely early and it's not a situation that happens very often in alteil, but it's due to your deck choice and decisions. Of course no file will have counters to all situations, but the solutions you could've had are all very easy and common things you could add, putting aside the fact that the decision to play rapid growth while your opponent played flesh recycle was the pivotal point in your match. Even in chess a match can be decided in 3 or 4 moves given the right situation, and this is exactly what happened here. A stalemate like this wouldn't occur with the majority of files in folrart. It's almost like the fierte and sin ss complaints all over again, but in a different form.

Like I said, purposely going for a draw is a bit unsportsmanlike, but the ability to take a win from your opponent lies solely on yourself. You were unable to do so, and your opponent capitalized on this.
Last edited by Multi on Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby Xovian » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:55 pm

Multi wrote:It's clear to me that your opponent just flat out outplayed you in this match xovian.

If you consider that playing, then your welcome to it, we will not agree on this, but I asked for opinions...fine.
I have yours now, move on.

On a side note, I am not asking for "what could I do".
I don't need help in this folks, this is a not "help me build a file" thread.

I'm asking opinions about the way the draw occurred, and what the thoughts on that are overall.
Please stick to that with any replies.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby Multi » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:59 pm

Xovian wrote:
Multi wrote:It's clear to me that your opponent just flat out outplayed you in this match xovian.

If you consider that playing, then your welcome to it, we will not agree on this, but I asked for opinions...fine.
I have yours now, move on.


Well, the match was over on the turn of rapid growth / flesh recycle. It's situations like these that I suggested a draw button to be implemented. All things considered, the way draws are calculated on alteil also encourage this kind of play. If a draw counted as nothing at all, and a draw button were created where both players could agree to one, then this would be a nonissue.

Just like there's a reason to give up early when you know the match has already been decided, there's a reason to have a mutual consent to a draw because a match has already been decided. Just because you're unsatisfied that a conclusion could be reached so quickly because you're playing "big" is just sour grapes.

Xovian wrote:On a side note, I am not asking for "what could I do".
I don't need help in this folks, this is a not "help me build a file" thread.

I'm asking opinions about the way the draw occurred, and what the thoughts on that are overall.
Please stick to that with any replies.


I'm pretty sure we all know this isn't a "help me build a file" thread, and the suggestions made were an integral part of how the authors opinions were drawn upon. At least, speaking for myself, the reason why I believe you were outplayed was because unless you just flat out didn't have ANY units of lvl 3-4 (i forgot if you had 3sp or 4sp that turn) or lower when you played that rapid growth, you could've avoided that situation regardless of his playing flesh recycle. In that case, that's something you should consider as a design weakness in your file.

Going for a draw when it's to your advantage is no different from knowingly playing an overpowered meta, i.e. primclone. It's a bit unsportsmanlike, but players doing so are playing in a way that benefits them the most. If your opponent could've found a way to continually deny you sp while somehow increasing his units or having an sp advantage, it's likely he would've played it out. Something like two mad priests or something would've ended up in the same situation with the exception that he would've been able to build up sp while draining your's.

If in all honesty your opponent would've taken a draw rather than try for a win from an overwhelmingly advantageous position, that's their decision, but if their intent is just to make you waste time, then obviously that's against the rules. Like purposely stalling for time.
Last edited by Multi on Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby Artist » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:08 pm

lol I actually found this really funny. IMO it's not that lame, it's like the "perfect" counter to big decks is it not? Actually not really, a perfect counter would result in win, not draw. I'd like to see him try this against a gowen rush, I bet you it would not work out. Heck, if your 1st ss was any kind of a damage ss, it wouldn't have worked out either. IMO it's totally fair. There's no difference between this deck beating yours, and cyclone beating level 2 rushes. It's just like how Raste is totally anti-undead, and how spy is perfectly good vs slow decks, this guy's opening caught one of the few weak points of your file and attacked it hard.

The weakness in his deck is very apparent as well, one for example, level 2- cards at all could bypass this whole ordeal. Bring out some kurina, combat monk, highland born, I doubt his deck would even dent that.
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