Just a consensus...

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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby Xovian » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:14 pm

I'll clarify the question I'm asking here:

Is knowingly forcing a draw because it benefits a player RP, XP, FM wise, considered a valid play tactic, and one that should be encouraged and/or condoned.

Thus far it seems the player base is a bit split.

Some think its perfectly viable, albeit lame.
Some think it's a great use of cards.

Thus far I think I'm the only person that does not think it should be a valid tactic.
But it's the reason i proposed this question in the first place.

Let's get some more opinions, everyone I'm sure has their own.
Agree or don't, here's a chance to give your thoughts.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby Multi » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:28 pm

Artist wrote:lol I actually found this really funny. IMO it's not that lame, it's like the "perfect" counter to big decks is it not? Actually not really, a perfect counter would result in win, not draw. I'd like to see him try this against a gowen rush, I bet you it would not work out. Heck, if your 1st ss was any kind of a damage ss, it wouldn't have worked out either. IMO it's totally fair. There's no difference between this deck beating yours, and cyclone beating level 2 rushes. It's just like how Raste is totally anti-undead, and how spy is perfectly good vs slow decks, this guy's opening caught one of the few weak points of your file and attacked it hard.

The weakness in his deck is very apparent as well, one for example, level 2- cards at all could bypass this whole ordeal. Bring out some kurina, combat monk, highland born, I doubt his deck would even dent that.


Exactly my point Artist. This was just a very unique situation, and the fact that the conclusion was reached so quickly just goes to emphasize the weakness of Xovian's file. It's not something that would occur to pretty much any file out there, and it's just a shame that it led to a draw. If the match had concluded in a loss by turn 4 somehow, (not actually a loss AT turn 4, but a loss DECIDED by turn 4) would this topic even exist?

Like I said, I think playing for a draw on purpose is a bit unsportsmanlike, but a total valid tactic. The way draws are calculated by alteil is the only reason any ill feelings would be had, and that's pretty much the point of this thread. It's about the dissatisfaction at how quickly the match was decided and the opponent's MOTIVE to reach a draw, not about draws themselves. So, my question is, if a draw were calculated differently and could be agreed on immediately at the point a stalemate had been created, would this thread exist?

Looks like you answered that question as I was typing this up. My answer is, yes, it's hella lame. But it's still valid, because that's how alteil's system is. You can't blame a player who tries to benefit any way he can without actually cheating. If there's anything to blame, it's the system itself, not the player. His motive is reasonable, as is the example I made before of knowingly playing an overpowered meta. Players are playing in their best interests, and many will criticize them, but as long as Alteil itself doesn't do anything about it, it's justice. With that said, primclone is no longer overpowered nor is DEFS apparently, so maybe the way draws are calculated will be adjusted as well.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby imortal12233 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:44 pm

This player actually gave up about my falkow rush file within turn 2, assuming I had a cyclone. He probably assumed he couldn't win against big red (for that reason) and decided drawing would be better than losing (especially when drawing actually gives exp and RP).
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby Artist » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:47 pm

IDK about it being lame really. Compare it with chess for a moment. Imagine one guy who's a well known good chess master (in this case xovian), against a person who's not so famous, but still plays chess (rival). Xovian is obviously able to beat the living daylights out of this rival person because he has the potential and skill to do so, yet this rival actually ended up forcing a draw between the two players. Maybe this was a friendly chess game on school campus, but what if this was a chess game in the grand championships? Wouldn't it be that this rival person would be considered totally skillful and brilliant? The comparison is not perfect considering how there's the obvious "we have different cards in our files" thing, however, wouldn't it be that the rival in this case got the better half of the deal through using his own powers?

Whatever, I'm not here to argue on opinions, just passing by to give my own. IMO this rival guy could've done better, draw is pretty weak, but it's better than a loss. I think rules are made first, and the people who are able to carry out what they desired while being within rule limits, they're perfectly fine. What I think is lame in Alteil is the fact that so many people use the same exact deck layout without much change, and win by doing that.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby GOSCAR » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:51 pm

Illegal no, not really; it's like yugioh when you can't beat the cards, beat the deck and make the opponent run out. While this causes game to be boring, it does make you wanna to think of countering. I kinda think this isn't lame, it's like having a back up plan just incase you know you will not win.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby Multi » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:58 pm

Artist wrote:IDK about it being lame really. Compare it with chess for a moment.

Whatever, I'm not here to argue on opinions, just passing by to give my own. IMO this rival guy could've done better, draw is pretty weak, but it's better than a loss. I think rules are made first, and the people who are able to carry out what they desired while being within rule limits, they're perfectly fine. What I think is lame in Alteil is the fact that so many people use the same exact deck layout without much change, and win by doing that.


I did compare it to chess lawl :V
I don't think anything about what he DID was lame, and like I said, I felt he outplayed Xovian and exploited an inherent weakness in his file, which I thought was quite ingenious. But in response to Xovian's clarified question on the thoughts on this player's INTENT and MOTIVE. Playing for a draw when you don't feel like you can win I believe is also fine, but the fact that playing to a draw is actually tantamount to a win for the rival iczer and a loss for Xovian as far as XP and RP go is the "lame" part. I feel this is more Alteil's fault than the players because the players are only going to play whatever benefits them most within the system.

Well, you and I are basically just restating each other's opinions anyways :V I'm only really going out on a limb here because I don't want someone to feel like I'm trying to attack them personally. Not you Artist :)

And yeah, I agree with you on that last point, i don't play anymore really except for the 5 of 7 events, but I still end up playing the same files I've seen many many times even in that small amount of time, each time.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby joshisawesum » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:59 pm

Xovian wrote:I'll clarify the question I'm asking here:

Is knowingly forcing a draw because it benefits a player RP, XP, FM wise, considered a valid play tactic, and one that should be encouraged and/or condoned.



I believe the only time a competitive player (someone who wants the best possible outcome for themselves) would force a draw is when his chances of winning are very slim and/or highly luck dependent. I have no doubt the RP/XP/FM play a part in this as well for us Alteil players, but I think that wasn't his only motivation for forcing the draw. No competitive player would take the other option (the one with high risk of losing) even if the RP/XP/FM rewards were nil.

If everyone was just "playing for fun", then I guess that would be a different story. But from my perspective, it's quite a competitive playing field out there, and I completely support decisions to force a draw because it's the most beneficial thing to do. It's not "lame" at all... because it was his only viable choice.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby Otonashi » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:01 pm

It might be very boring, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it. He could have made a good guess at his chances of beating you, and chose to go for a draw because it's better than losing. Even though it wasn't a literal win, it was still a better outcome (for him) than what likely would have happened if he didn't stall the game.

Besides, all of this could have been averted if you had made room for a single Dragon Breath. Maybe Sweeping Tidal Wave, even.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby Xovian » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:06 pm

Otonashi wrote:Besides, all of this could have been averted if you had made room for a single Dragon Breath. Maybe Sweeping Tidal Wave, even.

My shear winds proved that wouldn't have made a difference.
Sweeping tidawave may have given me the opening for a level 3, but that would of been it.

As i said, people please stick to the question about the match, saying "add such and such" is not useful information, and just clutters the thread.
Hind-site 20/20 is not what I'm requesting here.
Not trying to single you out with the quote Oto, just quoted to comment on the one specific statement.

Seems a vast majority now approve of such play given the competitive nature of the game.
I wouldn't have thought so, but I enjoy the replies, gives food for thought for everyone if nothing else.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby azurewrath » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:19 pm

He won the match from my viewpoint. You lost RP; he gained RP. From here on, you are just complaining about how he "won". If we go by Sirlin's principle's 100% (Playing to Win), then you are just being a scrub. He used his knowledge of your deck and the system to outperform you. You "lost" because your rival basically outplayed you. Take that as you will.

Now what should you be doing after this game? It shouldn't be asking others if this is right or wrong. It apparently is right --- the game allows it and he isn't punished for it. What you should be asking yourself is what you can do to prevent this from happening again. Is it worth putting in 2x dragon breath (you won't need 3 as the third succ can just be fire arrowed) to counter this strategy? Is it worth it to start with another ss? You shouldn't be trying to make others come to the same opinion as yourself when it came to this match.

Now with that said, my Big Red file would have "lost" the exact same way if it happened to me. I would say that all Big Red files that start in that manner would. I personally don't feel the need to include 2 dragon breaths in my file to counter this. File space is very valuable and each of the 25 slots is taken by something I desperately need. I would just accept this as a bad matchup and accept the loss. Really, sometimes you just lose right? If it is really bothering you, just count it as a disconnect that didn't result in a +1 loss.
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