Just a consensus...

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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby Peralisc2 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:21 pm

Is knowingly forcing a draw because it benefits a player RP, XP, FM wise, considered a valid play tactic, and one that should be encouraged and/or condoned.

For me it's same as playing a deck that beats most folrart decks or counters the meta. (not pointing at you or your deck, just generally speaking) You know what will hit hard and hurt the high XP / RP guys and get you easy gains.

The player used his options and played his cards, can't see your opinion as a reason to discourage that. I don't see any reason at all to discourage manipulating the game the way you want with what you got offered, other than through other cards or other options that are within the gameplay set and not through external rules.

Well the locks they added seem to favor more the low level decks, with pixy that locks level 4s and above , with buffers that make your low levels laugh at zu-jyuva's close skill for example, etc.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby crimsonshade » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:37 pm

azurewrath wrote:He won the match from my viewpoint. You lost RP; he gained RP. From here on, you are just complaining about how he "won". If we go by Sirlin's principle's 100% (Playing to Win), then you are just being a scrub. He used his knowledge of your deck and the system to outperform you. You "lost" because your rival basically outplayed you. Take that as you will.

Now what should you be doing after this game? It shouldn't be asking others if this is right or wrong. It apparently is right --- the game allows it and he isn't punished for it. What you should be asking yourself is what you can do to prevent this from happening again. Is it worth putting in 2x dragon breath (you won't need 3 as the third succ can just be fire arrowed) to counter this strategy? Is it worth it to start with another ss? You shouldn't be trying to make others come to the same opinion as yourself when it came to this match.

Now with that said, my Big Red file would have "lost" the exact same way if it happened to me. I would say that all Big Red files that start in that manner would. I personally don't feel the need to include 2 dragon breaths in my file to counter this. File space is very valuable and each of the 25 slots is taken by something I desperately need. I would just accept this as a bad matchup and accept the loss. Really, sometimes you just lose right? If it is really bothering you, just count it as a disconnect that didn't result in a +1 loss.


Don't think this topic is about Xovian complaining about his draw/"loss", or about his battle in particular for that matter... he's just asking the general opinion of the public about draw games. I hope people can see that.

@Xovian: If this thread was in "General Discussion" section, maybe the atmosphere will be a bit different. I don't blame people for coming into Extension Video Library with the mindset that they have to comment on the recorded game
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby Xovian » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:00 pm

crimsonshade wrote:@Xovian: If this thread was in "General Discussion" section, maybe the atmosphere will be a bit different. I don't blame people for coming into Extension Video Library with the mindset that they have to comment on the recorded game

Yea i thought about asking the question there, but since you have to "see the example" so to speak, i figured it would get moved here since the question does stem from the match itself.


Lacking the counters, sure no problem and already stated I didnt have them.
It can happen in any game.
A non-issue as far as im concerned cause it is not what's being asked.

I will say this, I'd really like to know the logic of being "outplayed" a number of people are referring too.
I'm just not seeing the whole "lack of counter = outplayed"....nope just not seeing that one.
If it is...WELLL I got's an idea...
If this is being "outplayed" i'd like to say Ex Primrose needs to be returned to what she was prior to the first nerf...after all if its skill and "outplaying", and not the use of combination or mechanics by the reasoning some of you are putting forth, then why shouldn't she be?
I mean all those people who lost to EX Prim constantly before the nerf...you were OUTPLAYED.
You should really think about that before saying that to anyone, me or other wise, is "outplayed".

Also please do not comment on peoples files especially when you don't know them.
Just guessing that "Big Red" has any given specific card is a fallacy.
And frankly put, yall dont even know for sure what it was, so keep the second guessing to yourselves.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby Artist » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:09 pm

Yeah I would agree and say there's really no "outplay" going on here. IMO it was just pure luck that these two decks met, and one happens to be the counter of another, another which is supposed to be top tier I'm guessing. You can't really "outplay" someone if neither people play any cards, thus the term "outplay" is definitely not the right one.

It's more just that it was a hard deck counter in general.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby Xovian » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:20 pm

Artist wrote:It's more just that it was a hard deck counter in general.

I agree, and it's as simple as that.

My questioned stemmed from the way draws are actually handled.... they've been around since the games inception but they are rare, in fact one older player even said to this day they have never had a single draw.
Which surprised me, so it made me wonder if people think the current system is a "good" system or not.

Personally I think the fact it can be exploited for gain, under very specific conditions, begged the question..."is it a good thing?".
Many think it is fine as is, and that's all I really wanted to know.
I have not once ever stated my opinion should be the one and only way, nor would i be so nieve to think i could convince the player base one way or another.
I'm not even trying to convince anyone of anything here.

I just wanted opinions, so I could see how other people would view the situation if it became more common, and as new sets come out, it gets to be a higher and higher probability that the rate of draws will eventually increase.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby azurewrath » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:50 pm

From the way you pose your statements, one can assume you swayed toward your own side and from your statements defending your position on the first page, one can see you try to pursue others to align with your viewpoint. That, and I take offense to you suggesting I don't know the components of Big Red. Hell, I play it myself and almost any player can give you the first 3 to 4 turns of any deck going Gowen/ Faklow (turn 1 skip, turn 2 Pullermia, turn 3 MoF, turn 4 MoF or maybe Antilla). That, and I've seen your deck play.

Like I said, if you strictly follow Playing to Win, then you are just being a scrub for not accepting this as a valid strategy (IE being a scrub by definition). The opponent literally outplayed you with his knowledge of the very common start of most Gowen/Faklow decks (Big Red in this instance >.>) and used it to win by definition. Draws don't count toward win percentage. They might as well be losses really as they reduce win percentage. He reduced your RP. He won RP. In the strictest sense, you really did lose and you were literally outplayed due to it.

You can say you asked about the mechanic itself, but it is obvious that you want others to agree with you about your sense of injustice in this match. I feel no sympathy because I can just write it off as a loss. The mechanic never bothered me because it helps arbitrarily keep games short. Really, draws don't happen often and I doubt they will happen THAT much more often in the future. They are also there for both people to use if they deem it in their best interest. I mean, a draw is still less RP loss than a full out loss. Again, referring to that particular game, the other person probably felt that he would not be able to eat 2x allind and a few BoF and still come out the victor. He choose the safe path instead and drew the match. I've had it happen to me late in the game a couple of times when I was winning. I didn't think less of my opponent to try to draw.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby Multi » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:52 am

!! WALL OF TEXT !!

crimsonshade wrote:Don't think this topic is about Xovian complaining about his draw/"loss", or about his battle in particular for that matter... he's just asking the general opinion of the public about draw games. I hope people can see that.

Wrong.

Xovian wrote:The game basically becomes a draw at turn 3 or 4. The opponent knew he was forcing a draw, and stated such since he would get XP and RP from the draw (he was lower in both).

Now my question is, do people agree this is a valid tactic?
...
People get draws, and even forcing them is sometimes a valid tactic, and even excepted as fair play.
...
Both had lost plenty of LP in the fight to say the least, and the draw didnt actually "occur" until the turns were in the upper 20's.
But in this case what does the game fall under?

For me, I found it to be exploitative and aggravating to be forced to go from such an early game to draw so quickly with no hope of even playing, just because the opponent would get XP and RP.
...
I'm not arguing that this can happen, I'm not even saying it shouldn't happen at times.
My "beef" is that I didn't even get to play.
...
I'm asking opinions about the way the draw occurred, and what the thoughts on that are overall.

He clearly states he's talking about this specific game, he clearly states he's talking about this sort of draw and not "valid" draws where matches come to the conclusion after 20 such turns. He clearly states he is aggravated by the fact that he was in a no win situation early on, but says "no hope of even playing," making it sound like it's not his fault he was placed in that situation.

Xovian wrote:Considering I have EN and could do the exact same thing, it isnt because I don't know that this can be done, but I personally prefer to play games out.

Makes it sound like this tactic could be done easily anytime, but it was in fact, a fairly unique situation, specific to this type of file. Any other proxy even would not have been killed by a flesh recycle, and that flesh recycle was necessary so that pull would not kill ex riza or succubus. Saying you personally prefer to play games out gives the impression that, that's the honorable thing to do.

For example, "Considering I have x overpowered meta and could do the EXACT same thing, it isn't because I don't know this can be done, but personally, I prefer to play files for fun." <-- You see this line all the time on the forum, it doesn't exactly say "oh I'm more righteous" straight out, but you can get the intention, or at least you can at least see how such an intention could be construed.

Xovian wrote:Is knowingly forcing a draw because it benefits a player RP, XP, FM wise, considered a valid play tactic, and one that should be encouraged and/or condoned.

Xovian then clarifies his 'actual' intent for his original post here. I think the use of the term "tactic" here is a mistaken word choice considering that the 'motive' for causing a draw has nothing to do with play or tactics. The issue of how draws can benefit or punish a player is certainly a valid concern, but calling it a 'tactic' is a misnomer.

Xovian wrote:I will say this, I'd really like to know the logic of being "outplayed" a number of people are referring too.
I'm just not seeing the whole "lack of counter = outplayed"....nope just not seeing that one.
If it is...WELLL I got's an idea...
If this is being "outplayed" i'd like to say Ex Primrose needs to be returned to what she was prior to the first nerf...after all if its skill and "outplaying", and not the use of combination or mechanics by the reasoning some of you are putting forth, then why shouldn't she be?

The reason why I personally said outplayed is because playing to me, starts at deck construction. You either failed to consider the problems of not having a solution to a situation like this, or you chose to ignore it. It's like EN or low level rushes weighing the benefits of their file vs getting cycloned. Perfectly acceptable. The point is, your opponent still had the capacity to figure out what kind of file you were going to play, or at least have an idea that you wouldn't have any low level cards and capitalized on it, supporting it by flesh recycling your proxy, a fairly key move. You twisting the word around because you're bitter over the use of the word to compare a clearly overpowered blanket combo is the same as a very specific, very fragile hard counter speaks volumes. At the least it's very clear you are offended by this terminology (and perfectly within your right to be offended by such comments imo). I don't really think you should be though, I think everyone knows you're a good player.

Just as azure said, you may tack on at the end of some of your posts that you just wanted to hear people's opinions, but it's fairly clear you had already taken a side and therefore was biased to begin with in your responses, going so far as to be defensive over your unofficial position. If you truly wanted to hear everyone's pure opinions, you should not have made your own feelings on the matter clear. Also diverting replies saying "you could've done this or you should've done that" aren't exactly off topic because they're the source of how many posters reached their conclusions. Some "unsatisfactory" answers you may have gotten are also due to how unclear your "true" question was, as I pointed out at the first part of this post.

Try not to take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to attack you personally, but this thread was not created with a purely intellectual intent, because of how things were worded and their tone, (even the topic name Just a consensus dot dot dot), but rather a way of seeing how many people sided with your feelings and how many people do not.

Xovian wrote:Yes there are plenty of counters, but no file can carry all counters...thats just part of the game, so you are correct in the fact it was a game that ended the way it did because i didnt have the counters.
However, the rewards from such a game should not be condoned or encouraged.
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Thus far I think I'm the only person that does not think it should be a valid tactic.
...
Seems a vast majority now approve of such play given the competitive nature of the game.
I wouldn't have thought so, but I enjoy the replies, gives food for thought for everyone if nothing else.


Even in psychological surveys, researchers can introduce researcher bias by how questions are stated unknowingly. Well, it's not like I'm telling you it's wrong to state your own feelings on the matter, but rather I'm just backing up Azure's statements.

Oh, and I don't really feel like calling "having a card of lvl 3 or lower in my file," can really be considered a counter. That's just how I feel, since I'm not really sure merely having that would've necessarily "countered" anything, but rather, prevented putting you in that unique situation. It's like in this situation, calling having 2-3 copies of a unit (proxy) a "counter." Just sounds weird to me.

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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby Xovian » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:56 am

To assume makes an **** of u and me (ass-u-me).
You can say you asked about the mechanic itself, but it is obvious that you want others to agree with you about your sense of injustice in this match.

Wrong, you as well as others have wanted to read it that way, and your combative and often derogatory comments along side your statements have proven this.
I said I didn't agree with the system, and I gave my reasons why.
It's simply amazing that your so convinced that YOU"RE right, you can't even acknowledge a simple question.

I'm sure you can name a file type and I've played it, so you're saying you've seen me play one with that opening and that means it's all inclusive to you?
You're as arrogant as your are pompous.
Guess you havn't seen my Rasam and Arch Mage file, which includes Antillia.
Even some of my pure falkow open that way cause i prefer to use SP gen from Gowen in certain files, as i tend to have bad luck with MoF and the Agi increase can effect a game more then people give credit.
And just fyi since you're such a GENIUS, none of my big red use Fire arrow or ball of lame...NONE, so quit acting like you Fing know what the hell you're talking about, you don't know me, all you want to do is argue and ridicule.

And I'll take it all your losses, you were just "outplayed".
Preposterous.
Literally the most idiotic and contrived statement ever made anywhere.


LOCK/delete THIS GOD DAMN THREAD

I knew i should of never ****ing asked.
And frankly i could care less if you ban from the forums, cause this is my last post in the open forum.

And mutil, you've been trolling from the start.
You're not even worth an answer.
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby luckysvn777 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:13 am

Wow.. overreaction much? I thought I was bad.. There wasn't anything that offensive to get so upset about...

And I have to agree with those who say you really worded this topic to try and get people to side with you on this. Whether or not that was your intention, that's how it came across. And I honestly can't see much reason to be upset other than that most people aren't agreeing with you. Heck, I don't. Sure its not the most noble way, but against Big Red with that, I might be tempted to draw instead of risking the loss if I didn't think i had a big chance of winning. Its a valid tactic. I wouldn't call that being "outplayed", but at the same time leaving yourself open to such a possibility is no ones fault but your own. And its not like that tactic would work anywhere else but there.

I'm not trying to be offensive, but its just a draw. Its not worth getting so worked up about..
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Re: Just a consensus...

Postby azurewrath » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:20 am

Ahem....I wasn't here to ridicule you. I even tried to carefully state my wording and saying "strictly adhering" to a philosophy I know not everyone adheres to or even knows about. Hell, I was just giving my opinion in my first post. If I seemed offensive, it was because I felt attacked by you when you said:
Xovian
Also please do not comment on peoples files especially when you don't know them.
Just guessing that "Big Red" has any given specific card is a fallacy.
And frankly put, yall dont even know for sure what it was, so keep the second guessing to yourselves.

I even tried to clarify by saying Gown/Faklow decks later too. Even stating the first 4 turns (which does include Antilla btw....) It doesn't matter though. I admit I was at fault for inciting this. I guess I came off strong and I apologize.
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