Return Mechanic Counters

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Re: Return Mechanic Counters

Postby angelspawns » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:09 pm

GonFreeces31 wrote:So back to counters, I still think up and down leveling should be more incorporated into tribes, and also there can be more of a focus on sp gen/drain mids and bigs. Direct counters to return just seem sort of inefficient to me, that that they shouldn't be made, cause there are things like talisman to totally own undead files, but direct counters to something are only useful in a small fraction of your games. Like they can take the 'forest rhino' approach and introduce more agility 1 power creep tanky units.

I have to agree an approach like Talisman isn't preferred. Specially amongst Tribal files you got so many auto-include cards there's hardly room for 3 copies of something useless in 75% of your matches. The same reason why "Set opponent Falkowlvl to 0" and "50dmg to all Falkow units" SS's are so silly if you want to play competitive in Folrart (and that's what this game revolves around).

That's why i take it broader and like to focuss on GRIM (and openskill) prevention.
AlteilUS keeps making more and more powerfull Grims and Openskills. Take a match vs. Falkow or Gowen and count how many turns you have to begin without the presence of a current fielded unit. It straight out becomes an advanced artform of play to have a combo standing at the startphase.

Defenetly not newby friendly. And worst of all, currently can't be countered in ALOT of circumstances.


Needs more options. And not only in Falkow or Lawtia. Dagon & Double hit action + Openskill baners, double bane or even free bane in Falkow... and the most vulnerable sphere that can use Grimbaning (combo orientated) only has 1, i repeat, 1 viable grimbaner?! It's also the most passive way of all = not working against Falkow.
Ye. I prefer we don't hit around the bush and just introduce what's so desperetly needed to survive in this game.
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Re: Return Mechanic Counters

Postby WhiteDragon2 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:34 pm

I'm not in favour of excessive grimbane options. Please keep it more specific to returns instead of also against things like bitter destiny and brave strike.
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Re: Return Mechanic Counters

Postby NitroDino » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:44 pm

angelspawns wrote:That's why i take it broader and like to focuss on GRIM (and openskill) prevention.


Suggestion for anti open skill grim:

lvl1
Units on both sides of the field are not affected by open skills for the next 5(maybe 3 to balance it out) turns.

or as action/start/auto skills on units...

other options to prevent grim spam is to introduce cards that give your units grim immunity, something like:
Action Skill 0-1 SP
Do dmg AT to a random enemy unit in range and then give to 1 friendly unit the following trait "This unit cannot be affected, targeted, or randomly chosen by Grimoires."
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Re: Return Mechanic Counters

Postby ayman » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:52 pm

how about grims of mass magic invulnerability. they could debuff and give invulnerability for certain number of turns.
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Re: Return Mechanic Counters

Postby Callonia » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:12 pm

Callonia wrote:Falkow deniers tsk tsk tsk.


Triple returned? You spend 12 sp resetting the unit. Set for 1st time, returned. 2nd time, returned. 3rd time, returned. 4th time, not returned.

Triple fire arrowed? you spend 5 sp setting the unit and revivals combined. Set 3 sp, killed. 1 sp revival, Killed. 1 Sp revival, Killed. You get 3 sp back on death and card goes to cemetery.

Therefore Fire arrow and return comparison is null and void.


See, that is why return is so op, you lose a set phase that u could be using to summon a new unit compared to fire arrow. when Fire arrow pops out, you get to still keep on filling out ur field even when its damaged. And start fighting omgzors. Why this logic is so hard to grasp is beyond me for the return huggers.
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Re: Return Mechanic Counters

Postby fargone » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:26 pm

There really aren't any worthwhile counters to return. They all cost more sp than they are worth, especially when multisphering specifically for that purpose. Return simply changes the game from a unit v's unit game to an sp race.

It seems ppl with no real argument are willing to fight to keep it that way. Those ppl are on the testing team. Their arrogance exceeds even my own. They don't know how to play falkow units, they just play return files dressed up in different clothes. Sad part is, they can't see past their own limitations, and think that is because they are better than you - its an old psychological mind trick that non-jedi folk sometimes play on themselves.

Get used to the fact. This thread is pushing **** up a hill that will eventually dump it back on you as soon as you realise what is going on.
GonFreeces31 wrote:
fargone wrote:I realise this is completely off topic, but Icy deserves the limelight more than others. Some of whom dominate the forums with their endless posts.


What, I make legit points too...
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Re: Return Mechanic Counters

Postby Callonia » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:57 pm

Protip: Alteil 2 removed returns and its garbage mechanics for a good reason. Its cuz they couldn't come up with a good counter to it other than even more returns.
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Re: Return Mechanic Counters

Postby Sir Wuffles » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:58 pm

As I stated before, stop whining about Returns... theyre a fair part of the game, people need to spend as much if not more to return 1 unit you played for the sp you paid... you should really stop QQing about Falkow and QQ about the OPNESS of Gowen.
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Re: Return Mechanic Counters

Postby ChiYoung » Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:04 pm

Wow, that's ironic, because mid-big Gowen is one of the few things that do consistently well against Returns.
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Re: Return Mechanic Counters

Postby Gigantorus » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:05 am

ChiYoung wrote:Wow, that's ironic, because mid-big Gowen is one of the few things that do consistently well against Returns.


Yea, why have 1 or 2 counters for Return files? THIS MUST BE FIXED! Return files should yield 100% win unless you play against another Return file.
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