Demanding Emana Nerf

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Re: Demanding Emana Nerf

Postby AngelicDeath » Fri May 04, 2012 5:07 pm

Cal,

Please take time to actually read the post in full before posting. My point was that units with above stats have drawbacks. It makes no sense that 2 units with exactly the same above level stats have 2 different drawbacks ( 1 card vs 2 card return).

Chaos form is rarely played with 2 existing units on field - that is 7 falk lvs plus 7 sp plus an additional 1 for his open in addition to any units he would " hide" behind. the rng 5 thing could be said for other units as well such as legyre and even dark emporer.

Lv 1 combat support is kinda silly on a rng 3 unit. Better to use combat support on a rng 1 unit in exchange- plenty of rng 1 units with combat support for instance. Pinpoint would be more useful for rng 3 unit etc.

You are welcome to your opinion, which as i read it does not differ too much from my own, but you seem to misinterprit my meaning for some unkown reason.

AD
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Re: Demanding Emana Nerf

Postby Icyglare » Sat May 05, 2012 2:47 am

AngelicDeath wrote:Cal,

Please take time to actually read the post in full before posting. My point was that units with above stats have drawbacks. It makes no sense that 2 units with exactly the same above level stats have 2 different drawbacks ( 1 card vs 2 card return).

Chaos form is rarely played with 2 existing units on field - that is 7 falk lvs plus 7 sp plus an additional 1 for his open in addition to any units he would " hide" behind. the rng 5 thing could be said for other units as well such as legyre and even dark emporer.

Lv 1 combat support is kinda silly on a rng 3 unit. Better to use combat support on a rng 1 unit in exchange- plenty of rng 1 units with combat support for instance. Pinpoint would be more useful for rng 3 unit etc.

You are welcome to your opinion, which as i read it does not differ too much from my own, but you seem to misinterprit my meaning for some unkown reason.

AD


Well, WHY NOT? If the lv3 only returned 1, it would definitely way strong for a turn2 unit out there with those action skills.

In the tournament, I used Chaos Form when I had units out, I put it in the last row because I didn't want it to die, I have no clue why you are focusing on that rng5 thing (It's action skill relies on RNG so this way, no matter where you put it, it will randomly target any unit on the opponents side unless you affect the rng/hp. Star Dragon probably be a better choice since rarely you see all 6 rows (3 on each side) filled up where the RNG 5 matters but then, I also thought, "who cares?"
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<-- http://www.youtube.com/AlteilReplays -->

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Re: Demanding Emana Nerf

Postby Callonia » Sat May 05, 2012 4:34 am

Reread my post please. Those oddities can be understandable.

Also, really skilled wizards has been known to sling their spells from really really safe distance to enrage all the warriors attempting to introduce those skilled wizards to their warrior's cold steel.

And the magic doll, she can be in front row as an transitional unit easily. buff once and die and trigger an ss or revive twice.

And those crest guys has been played more now because they support the typical crest play style of blaze and pop. Before, they was just terrible, the errata for those guys has been wonderful.

Lawtia the sphere where they don't' care about burning LP as long as the purpose achieves the result you looking for, and the drawback is part of that sphere's philosophy.

But about emana, she's just elite fencer on steroids, I don't even understand why she left beta exactly like the way she is its' like the alteil team forgot all about the anger on the forums about the defs. I even sent a strongly worded letter to support about how unbeatable the defs is. The only answer I found was big red or holy shield on zagar which can get wrecked by a single disjunction but fortunately the defs scrub is too "metay" so they never pack disjunction for zagar.
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Re: Demanding Emana Nerf

Postby hexagram » Sat May 05, 2012 7:02 am

just faced someone useing emmana mystere double combo + dion :(

+ the usual great spirits. Once established field impossible for me. too much counters against me - spamming undines, even dions engaging action skill....+ the usual powerful stuff. + bulegrid soul is very strong esp in control files / field presence ones
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Re: Demanding Emana Nerf

Postby smallfish » Sun May 06, 2012 2:53 pm

As the file creator of the Emana-Dion file...I would say right now the file is within line of the power level of the old BKR/Jack file(before nerf) in my opinion.

After the nerf, the file right now have a few big weakness where still not so players know....

Besides, some obvious counter-file like big-gowen, is so little because there are pixy and EN together which just hate out big file while Emana-Dion file is not so good at (All the grims are useless, that is about 5-8cards), which means the big file usually is difficult to get a good win rate. And since no big unit are around, return and tidal shine...

For the boring factor, well, i would say counter type file is like that. If i cannot control the field, i lose badly. Otherwise, i win greatly. If i know i can repeat and get advantage while you cannot counter me, why i need to endanger myself? Besides, this file also have the ability to force a draw game and the user will do that if they are forced to, instead of being overwhelming one-sided.

Besides, I would say many players just don't know how to beat this file only, but not their file are not able to do so. I encountered so many times where i am in a big disadvantage and the other side say GG and give up...

Moreover, i also think Emana is OP and should be changed somehow.
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Re: Demanding Emana Nerf

Postby iambad » Sun May 06, 2012 11:02 pm

I can't imagine what the developers where thinking making this card. It's like they said "Hey lets nerf elite fencer twice because it was causing so many problems, then lets make a card that is actually better then her and combos better with more cards later to reintroduce the same problem we spent 3 sets trying to fix" I mean really, you gave her the same hp pre nerf elite had, do you even remember the reason you gave when elite fencer and serpent were nerfed?
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Re: Demanding Emana Nerf

Postby angelspawns » Mon May 07, 2012 1:40 pm

Soon as errata came out:
angelspawns wrote:Missed opportunities and failures imo:
...
- Emana. (-5 Agi start gives an insane amount of control. It pinpoints ANY card ingame to go dead last: a HUGE influence in this game. Makes me wonder if EliteFencer taught you guys anything at all... and she only affected Agi4+... :!: I have yet to hear why -3 Agi nerf would kill the Mystere combo. Because it doesn't. -3 Agi only opens a small window to Agi4+ units and guess what... Falkow has EliteFencer! Seriously, this is too much potential for only a 2x lvl3 unit combo. Refess would screams murder at you guys. Long story short; nerfing her purpose as solid reviver hardly weakened what should be weakened here)

(tired of repeating myself, rather copy paste)
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Re: Demanding Emana Nerf

Postby Anima13 » Mon May 07, 2012 3:28 pm

[quote="iambad"]I can't imagine what the developers where thinking making this card.[/quote]

This is an issue a big issue.. why cant we imagine? ( not meant personal, many of us cannot imagine why) As long we do not arrive at the point that we can immagine why emana was designed the way it is we cannot discuss the possibilities how to nerf her appropiate.
Did falkow neede her at all?
What is her purpose?
Why agi control and field revive in one unit?
and what is her relationship to the overall balance in game?

or simply see my previous post....

just naging that she is overpovered and demanding a nerf, will not by any chance forward this discussion (if it is one at all).
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Re: Demanding Emana Nerf

Postby Anima13 » Wed May 16, 2012 9:17 pm

I find it amusing that noone reacted on my list of topics that should be discussed (nor on the one before) so I allow myself to double post and write down some thoughts I think about that is related to emana. Unfortunatelly it will be rather a set of claims then a real discussion but mabye we could advance a bit.

1. This is something that should likely appear similar in my balance thread for that i still didn't found time to write /finish. Balance is not static. Balance can change and evolve. With every new set release I have this feeling that the classical initial creation of balance is changing. All the spheres are slowly getting cards which conter the sphere they are usually weak to. Or suddenly things that were typical for one sphere are appearing in an other too. I see Emana in this tradition as an anti gowen card given to falkow and belive she was created with this mindset.

2. Why do falkow need agi control units?
This is something you can feel if you play a bit some falkow files and currently lacking certain cards. I for example still lack elife fencer, and due to this I do realize that without agi control, falkow completly loose to fast units (4-5 agi) and has nearly no chance to hold its field beside returning (or let me put it different: pre emana in almost every solid good falkow file this unit was there, which shows how important this kind of functionality for falkow is). To deal with all the speed and to be capable to fight of the enemy units on the field, there is a need for agi control of some kind (I would count also engage to this). While the spirits are also a nice option they the same time open up vulnerability of lp that is not necessary fitting to all kind of decks.
What is important to note here is that agi control is needed to fight of the field for falkow. Thus its a control that is more associated with the falkow aggro files.

3.mystere: There we have a 3 star character from the very early times of the game and still not played at all. Obviously she was lacking appropiate support unlike her "sister" dio who got everything. To make mystere work there is the need for a frog like alternative. One can discuss whether this has to be exactly emana or not an other unit but there was a need for one.
The fact that returning units do not appear to have enough hardconters conters, is a seperate issue, and i would like to see it seperately discussed. Dio was strong even before emana arrived.

one thing that conflicts the idea of mystere support as frog alias and also something I found surprising after finally playing against her was, that the agi drain of this card is independent of rng. Something I usually found in most central units of control type falkow yet not here. Instead she resembled rather the pre nerf elite fencer. and this is where i reached my personaly current opinion about her:

Emana was designed with the mindset of an anti gowen card, a field buffer/supporter for lvl 3 falkow aggro type decks. You know many ppl are whining about return and there are some amount of falkow files who needs these kinds of grims. Now an ideal aggro falkow deck would not need these kind of control at all. And this is the card we want to see nerfed....
The issue that arises with her is something similar to leet fencer. IF a falkow deck gains too much control and aggro concentrated in one its getting powerful, too powerful. Emana gives the survivability a falkow aggro deck would need to cope with the dmg existing in game, but she also gives the survivablilty to control decks which supposed to have their weakness exactly at this point (at least one of the mayor ones).

I would like to bring this idea up, that an appropiate way to balance falkow would be a more clear separation of aggro and control. Of course this would not solve the issues arising with the multispheres (which on its own ask for the queestion will it make still sense to compare spehres at all?) capable to dipp into falkow for returns, but at least make the things within falkow more easy.

In case of Emana it would be to make her more clear a unit for aggro type decks and hinder her synergy with control decks.

This now just an idea but likely there are several solutions for this:
One could let emana the way she is now and give her the open skill: remove 5 returning grims from your card file out of game. This Way we did not discriminated the other falkow grims, but expect conrol files adding her geitting a backdraw and forcing files which move between aggro and control to focus more on other control possibilities present in falkow, instead of just return.
Also I am the opinion that mystere could work well withouth returning grims.

Looking forward to a meaningfull discussion

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