Owl Sage, Kesaran Pasaran, and SP generation

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Re: Owl Sage, Kesaran Pasaran, and SP generation

Postby GonFreeces31 » Sat May 12, 2012 2:07 pm

Ex archer has 20HP and isn't used much, and vordore is a level 4 support unit people almost never use. I was just addressing your point about strengths of units, and on the field together, Refess has the most, and the best buffs. There is not 1 tribe in any sphere in the game that matches the sheer amount of stat points Solar Kingdom gets. I mean like look at generic Gowen warriors file which usually only has 1 buffer that gives a 10/1. Refess has in some cases 4 or 5 units buffing every ally. There is no denying in the realm of stat points, Refess is king.
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Re: Owl Sage, Kesaran Pasaran, and SP generation

Postby Callonia » Sat May 12, 2012 2:53 pm

GonFreeces31 wrote:Ex archer has 20HP and isn't used much, and vordore is a level 4 support unit people almost never use. I was just addressing your point about strengths of units, and on the field together, Refess has the most, and the best buffs. There is not 1 tribe in any sphere in the game that matches the sheer amount of stat points Solar Kingdom gets. I mean like look at generic Gowen warriors file which usually only has 1 buffer that gives a 10/1. Refess has in some cases 4 or 5 units buffing every ally. There is no denying in the realm of stat points, Refess is king.


So Solar kingdom is stuck playing exlapierre forever. Great balance, not.

And it seems like you forgot about pixies who have far better buffs than refess.

Pixies is the king when it comes to the buffs. 100 atk 90 def blah blah blah and 90 open damage. And +1 lv and +10 max hp / 10 hp to every friendly unit on field. And doesn't trigger ss on close.
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Re: Owl Sage, Kesaran Pasaran, and SP generation

Postby angelspawns » Sat May 12, 2012 3:18 pm

Yeah i know. As far as giving away extra statpoints Refess has ALOT of options.

I do find it difficult to put a realistic value to it. Some cards that do the buffs are passive and their presence don't contribute for anything else. (their RNG, Atk and sometimes Agi value are respectively of 0 value) Their lvl/SP cost can directly account for the statppoints they give out.
But there are enough cases where they actually do contribute more to the field then their cost. ExLap is a good example, or active units with already standard base stats. (like Shrines, Buncles) Those are defenetly an asset increasing statpoints above their value, and should be taken into account as such.
Dispite the fact Refess excells in the vast amount of these buff options, it doesn't make it a Refess only thing though. You might want to take a look at Orcs, or Martials, Duchy, Dolls, etc. aswell before making a grand statement to Refess only.
How many statpoints do Orcs get?

I do like to go into a deeper discussion, since a good evaluation of these basics can give a good perspective on why things should (or shouldn't) be buffed/nerfed.
We'll have to take alot more into account though. I'm not sure if you really want to right now but the value of Skills could greatly outweight any stat. It takes 1SP to do what 1000Atk could. (Violetx2) Some cards completely disregard all Def stats. And like you said, boosts to anything above 5Agi can be seen as useless. Same can be said about RNG above 3, or Atk above 100 (in alot of matchups).
And how will you take into account misplaced stats, like 3RNG unused on a buffer? As far as unused and missplaced stats go, i think Refess is in a league of its own here.
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Re: Owl Sage, Kesaran Pasaran, and SP generation

Postby Anima13 » Sat May 12, 2012 3:53 pm

Soo lets go through this :D

A. hard conters to owl are shade and salamander. both can be used early as sack units sala can even target owl open phase. IF i dont kill the shades/ salis they start to hit my crappy field and kill my owl or even some of my other units(and i loose sp and cards). They are not returnable and force me to kill them which in turn will activate their SS so they can target my owl and my field. By this simple way i cannot spam owls skill at all early and if i revive him I loose early sp which I desperately need to build up my field.

B. what rng 2->1 does?
lets take a senario: I have owl sitting in the back and an other unit on my field. my owl survives the turn and comes now as last unit. In this situation you would usually sp gen (in most case ppl will do this) but its not necessary the best solution.
a, It could be that my opponents unit has 10 hp left and i could kill it with owl. This way I generate sp too over my opponent and also get rid of one card.
b, I could kill a salamander/shade with it. With this I can accept the activation of an SS which will likely will target my owl and save the rest of my crappy units from a deadly SS and advance in the lp of the enemy without much worries. In this case i just turned around the weakness to the sack units to a strengh by deciding to move from a control to a little aggro, while not endangering my important units but saving them from an SS. Further more I had decided to activate my SS via letting owl die next turn.

You see a rng 2 owl had this option to decide between agression or simple sp generation. And what the rng nerf does is taking this possibility away. If I want to kill the sack unit now i have to rely on my other units. Owl is now pure control.

In addition rng1 means that I can engage owl via Strike Wyvern. And before you say thats nonesense and never will happen, i just did that last week and it was a very satisfactory experience.

C, and about this point:

"For every1 it's a fight for fieldpresence, and in no way shape or form is your Falkow worse in it then Lawt or Refess. It all has the same amount of statpoints as every1 else. It's always a game around a few keycards."

I may have been not clear enough when I was using the word aggro. I was implying a deck that uses brute force and no returning units/returning grims to fight. Think away every return mecahnism and owl.

And I am sorry but I really have to disagree a bit here. Yes everyone has to fight for field presence, but which sphere can loose its field the most easy? which sphere can be fieldwiped the most easy? yes the sphere with units of the lowest survivability, the sphere with a field that quiet often excells in having functionalities instead of synergy. and what happens if you snipe of the unit that has the best funcionality to fight the opponents field? badly loosing that turn. Of course other spheres can fight for field too, but falkow need that field presence the most desperately.
And if a falkow file do not generate an sp advantage over its opponent, and has no more way to impact the field beside placing units it will likely loose badly, because when it comes down to a fight face to face, most falkow units will loose to other spheres units and fields (in case those need one at all).
And this is the point where owl and return grims come in as a first solution to this issue.
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Re: Owl Sage, Kesaran Pasaran, and SP generation

Postby angelspawns » Sat May 12, 2012 4:45 pm

I'm a lvl 190 (actually somewhere close to 200) Iczer and play actively since somewhere before ExLap came out. Every time if Owl could take out a unit, it SP gens when it has the chance. This whole nerf on "aggro Owl" is as valid as a nerf on "aggro CrestOrderly" Atk.
It's simply not their function, and hardly ever affected the battle.

IF they felt something needed to change about Owl, this was the most useless thing that still could've been done to it. You sure you want to argue with me on this point? ;)

The rest i'll disregard as limited experience with other Tribes? Try play Refess and you'll see it's not sofar apart from eachother. I get the exact same feeling when my Gilensa gets sniped 3x in a row, and the rest of TGC's are suddenly helpless 20~25Atk units. It's more a combo/Tribal thing you're experiencing then Falkow only.
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Re: Owl Sage, Kesaran Pasaran, and SP generation

Postby fargone » Sun May 13, 2012 5:38 pm

GonFreeces31 wrote:There is no denying in the realm of stat points, Refess is king.


Yes there is. When it comes to stat points refess is balls, especially when you see WHERE they are distributed.

Start skill buff king I would agree with due to the number of options. If only you could keep those central buffers on the field, then you could even rely on them. Im sure other tribe do have better individual buffers, such as Grebados, Fairies, even Seria or hvy sheild doll (there are more) but most of those dont stack with other support cards due to tribal restrictions.
GonFreeces31 wrote:
fargone wrote:I realise this is completely off topic, but Icy deserves the limelight more than others. Some of whom dominate the forums with their endless posts.


What, I make legit points too...
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Re: Owl Sage, Kesaran Pasaran, and SP generation

Postby Callonia » Sun May 13, 2012 6:00 pm

fargone wrote:If only you could keep those central buffers on the field, then you could even rely on them. Im sure other tribe do have better individual buffers, such as Grebados, Fairies, even Seria or hvy sheild doll (there are more) but most of those dont stack with other support cards due to tribal restrictions.



Don't Heavy Shield Magic Doll buff anyone that's just behind her? Not magic dolls only, i've seen her in conjuncation with halberd soldier and igina and uh various rng 2 units plenty.
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