Owl Sage, Kesaran Pasaran, and SP generation

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Re: Owl Sage, Kesaran Pasaran, and SP generation

Postby GonFreeces31 » Sat May 12, 2012 12:56 am

Also all spheres should have start skills on par with EX Lap. Then we can all play our units and have buffing be important and whoever has the strongest buffing (even though buffing is equal across tribes) will win cause that's fair.
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Re: Owl Sage, Kesaran Pasaran, and SP generation

Postby Shadow1798 » Sat May 12, 2012 5:44 am

I'm aware I'm talking to a retarded troll wall, but it's late and I'm bored. Let's find every unit in the game that can generate you more SP or sphere levels than you started with. No card too terrible or situational.

Falkow

Witch Queen / Catherina
Owl Sage
Plundering Girl Pirate

Lawtia

Ancient Zombie Lord
Crest Orderly
Magic Doll -Mini- (Getting that 1SP is really roundabout. You would have to play 1, let it close, play a second, and let that close. But you can do it!)
Doll Master / Sumer

Gowen

The Red Mantle / DeFau
Archer Scout
Gaia Anaconda
Forest Child / Athira
Strongest Gun / Jack Winston
Treasure Hunter
Beltorat Wyvern Rider
Beltorat Shaman

Refess

Light Chaser / Advent
Saber Saint / Lapierre
Kesaran Pasaran
Sun and Birth / Weissvogel
Fallen Moon Child / Miffyre
EX: Sunlight Knight
Cait Sith (Half the time)
White Sage / Kaldrao
Lion General / Zagar
Sonic Seraphim
5th Shrine Leader / Judie
Opal Carbuncle
EX: Fountain Knight / Elneith

Multisphere or Effectively Multisphere

All the Proxies
All the Moxies
Forest Sorceress / Anttila
Mage Knight Lancer / Marduk
Mage Knight Fencer / Urgrant
Cursed Runesword Fighter
Dash Pixy (Technically)
Mage Soldier Mercenary Girl
Sword of the East / Toromea
Knight of Crest / Langbart
Chaos Form / Noze
Haste Sorceress
Red Priestess / Colette

CLEARLY Falkow deserves Owl Sage. Look at those whole 2 other cards of precedent.
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Re: Owl Sage, Kesaran Pasaran, and SP generation

Postby Icyglare » Sat May 12, 2012 6:03 am

Khiruki wrote:Poor Advent. The energizer bunny needs some sort of love.

Why exactly was Kaseran Paseran not allowed to have 20 HP and 2 AGI?


Because then it'd be Lv2 :p
For a large amount of various Alteil Replays, try youtube link

<-- http://www.youtube.com/AlteilReplays -->

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Re: Owl Sage, Kesaran Pasaran, and SP generation

Postby idol » Sat May 12, 2012 8:26 am

Shadow1798 wrote:Falkow

Witch Queen / Catherina
Owl Sage
Plundering Girl Pirate

CLEARLY Falkow deserves Owl Sage. Look at those whole 2 other cards of precedent.


I think Murdak and Urgrant goes into the list if PGP's there.
I think what happened here is not Owl Sage has OP SP generating skills,
just it goes too well with Falklow return mechanism
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Re: Owl Sage, Kesaran Pasaran, and SP generation

Postby angelspawns » Sat May 12, 2012 8:31 am

AlteilUS decides to nerf the Top50. AlteilUS sees OwlSage!

AlteilUS nerfs his RNG.

..


How many people here facepalmed?? xD Where does this retarded nerf come from?
The fact they looked at Owl Sage, and decided to nerf his RNG says it all. Current Alteil team is not going to adress the real issues. They want to nerf 'around the bush' and weaken cards other performances like on Emana...
But Owl has nothing to Nerf around the bush. The RNG on Owl is a meaningless stat that changes absolutely nothing to the outcome. Buff his RNG to +5 for all i care and make his Skill ask 2SP? Sounds like a sweet deal AlteilTeam, 5RNG for 1SP!! (Alteil logic)

Hitting around the bush is fine if you're compenent enough to handle things that way, but for gawd sake... please recognize when a card qualifies for a direct nerf instead. Sometimes its original function is to much or all that CAN be fixed to change anything to the outcome.

The real issue is that Falkow players get ahead in the SP curve way to easy with him.
In the first 3 turns Falkow got the cheapest options to get ahead: Catherina(+1), Owl(+1), Tidal(+1). They can start the SP race rediciously early and advantagious THAT'S the problem. THAT'S why Owl is Top50. Nerf his SP SKill from 2->3 or don't bother. You'll only make a fool out of yourselves.
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Re: Owl Sage, Kesaran Pasaran, and SP generation

Postby Anima13 » Sat May 12, 2012 12:12 pm

angelspawns wrote:AlteilUS decides to nerf the Top50. AlteilUS sees OwlSage!

AlteilUS nerfs his RNG.

..


How many people here facepalmed?? xD Where does this retarded nerf come from?
The fact they looked at Owl Sage, and decided to nerf his RNG says it all. Current Alteil team is not going to adress the real issues. They want to nerf 'around the bush' and weaken cards other performances like on Emana...
But Owl has nothing to Nerf around the bush. The RNG on Owl is a meaningless stat that changes absolutely nothing to the outcome. Buff his RNG to +5 for all i care and make his Skill ask 2SP? Sounds like a sweet deal AlteilTeam, 5RNG for 1SP!! (Alteil logic)

Hitting around the bush is fine if you're compenent enough to handle things that way, but for gawd sake... please recognize when a card qualifies for a direct nerf instead. Sometimes its original function is to much or all that CAN be fixed to change anything to the outcome.

The real issue is that Falkow players get ahead in the SP curve way to easy with him.
In the first 3 turns Falkow got the cheapest options to get ahead: Catherina(+1), Owl(+1), Tidal(+1). They can start the SP race rediciously early and advantagious THAT'S the problem. THAT'S why Owl is Top50. Nerf his SP SKill from 2->3 or don't bother. You'll only make a fool out of yourselves.


1To achieve balance nerf is not the only option.

2If a mechanism/card has a hardcore counter or even several but the player base is not ustilizing it, you cannot claim OPness. in fact the nerf was likely performed to weaken owl against his hardcore conters.

3 please go and play some falkow aggro files to see how fragile falkow units are, how they loose to every damage and how the sthrengh of the field is concentrated within a few units which carry the rest of the field. falkow is the sphere with the most sp inefficient units. You build up a field of 3 units with lets say 8sp cost your opponent plays one lvl4 and your field is a massacre and you are chancless if you dont do anything. Falkow has to fight for its field presence the whole game. And because our units are sp inefficient we need to make more sp to have a bigger field then our enemies.
This is the reason why there is an owl sage and returning grims in the sphere (and why gowen wrecks this sphere), and if you want to nerf one of them you have to redisign the whole sphere.
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Re: Owl Sage, Kesaran Pasaran, and SP generation

Postby iambad » Sat May 12, 2012 1:03 pm

owl sage is not op, each sphere has grims and opens that can kill 10-20 hp units easily. Yea it is easy sp gen, but it isn't free so it isn't like you can't prevent it even without killing it. The unit has 1 range, 1 agility, 10 hp, and 10 attack, you can not nerf much else before it becomes the worst card in altiel. I mean you could give it zero attack and make it a pure sp gen unit if you really wanted to nerf it further, which is what the range nerf effectively does anyways. We all know what falcow's problem is even if you don't want to admit it, owl sage just exacerbates the problem by making it easier. But owl sage itself is fine.
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Re: Owl Sage, Kesaran Pasaran, and SP generation

Postby angelspawns » Sat May 12, 2012 1:25 pm

You don't have to lecture me about how nerfing isn't the only option. Have you ever asked for more or better improved options to counter things Anima?? Because i know i have.
1.) I also said it's fine to 'hit around the bush'. I understand the concept of opening up other weaknesses to a card so it can be countered.

Things you skipped over:
" Owl has nothing to Nerf around the bush. The RNG on Owl is a meaningless stat that changes absolutely nothing to the outcome. "
" Hitting around the bush is fine if you're compenent enough to handle things that way, but for gawd sake... please recognize when a card qualifies for a direct nerf instead. Sometimes its original function is to much or all that CAN be fixed to change anything to the outcome. "

Perphaps you liked to ignore all context and intent so you can have your little tirade?

2.) Can you name even 1 of Owl's 'hardcore counters' that it's weaker to now?
OwlSage didnt get any better or worse. Owl goes last, Owl gens SP when it's his turn. His RNG is completely out of the equation. It doesn't affect his performance, nor opens any vulnerabilities for his counters. Nothing changed. Not ONE counter suddenly counters it better.

If there are already counteroptions in the game, and they still want to bring down the power/influence of a card, one might want to look at all counteroptions and ask the question: "is it viable enough?" "why don't they see much play?", "are there enough counters to play??" etc.
In case of Return counters, one could look at MiracleFruit and perhaps improve its function. In case of Owl they could look at improving SunWorhipper openskill etc.

3.) Actually i did. I used to play Falkow Starter in Folrart, because i wanted to grind a decent Refess collection together.(which says alot about the Refess starter)
You're summing up weaknesses ALOT of files experience throughout all colors. For every1 it's a fight for fieldpresence, and in no way shape or form is your Falkow worse in it then Lawt or Refess. It all has the same amount of statpoints as every1 else. It's always a game around a few keycards.

How much HP do you think Buncles have on their field?? Or the averedge Lawtia rush? How many keycards are there in TGC? It's about the exact same thing as for WK. Just the fact things often get devided differently within the spheres to open up different weaknesses and strengths, it doesn't mean your Falkow units are entitled to better SP gen. Where you lack HP you reap the Agi. Your units can poop enough Atk out aswell to be on par with anything else.
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Re: Owl Sage, Kesaran Pasaran, and SP generation

Postby GonFreeces31 » Sat May 12, 2012 1:35 pm

angelspawns wrote:You're summing up weaknesses ALOT of files experience throughout all colors. For every1 it's a fight for fieldpresence, and in no way shape or form is your Falkow worse in it then Lawt or Refess. It all has the same amount of statpoints as every1 else. It's always a game around a few keycards.

How much HP do you think Buncles have on their field?? Or the averedge Lawtia rush? How many keycards are there in TGC? It's about the exact same thing as for WK. Just the fact things often get devided differently within the spheres to open up different weaknesses and strengths, it doesn't mean your Falkow units are entitled to better SP gen. Where you lack HP you reap the Agi. Your units can poop enough Atk out aswell to be on par with anything else.


This is kind of nit-picking, but buncles are FAR stronger unit-wise than your average Falkow tribe. Refess start skills and buffing means when together, they are often times getting way more stats than what their base values suggest. I mean EX Lap rushes often get like 20 defense and 20 attack bonuses on top of base values. Agi 5+ is sorta whatever if all your units do 30 damage and you're facing units with defense.
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Re: Owl Sage, Kesaran Pasaran, and SP generation

Postby angelspawns » Sat May 12, 2012 1:39 pm

Yeah, falkow also needs ExWizArchers, Vordore of Easts, skills that raise their points based on Agi (or Falkowlvl) etc. ;) To each their own.
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