Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby methebest » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:12 am

GonFreeces31 wrote:I reread through this thread. It took over 200 posts and Demongod to specifically point to the Jewel + Mediator SS as the EXACT problem. Prior complaints were about Tidal and Faytis, which I still claim are poor arguments because you can use Tidal and Faytis independently of Jewel.

So I was not out of line asking you guys to clarify the argument, actually.

but you should have offerd a counter argument anyway.
i apologise for any incomprehensible posts as i tend to make them
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby GonFreeces31 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:17 am

I believe in the "innocent until proven guilty" approach to overpowered cards. It seems kind of odd to start with the assumption that a card is overpowered, and force someone to claim it isn't. Though you are right I could have done more.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby Romdeau » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:49 pm

Just because I did not spout the words "mediator SS" exactly, my specific argument that opening with a level 2 unit against a jewel was basically a insta loss-was somehow weak or irrelevant? You didn't even provide a counter argument except for "well that's an empirical issue" and I couldn't believe it. I basically said the advantage of sp generated from a fast soul skill in conjunction with Falkow's return tools (such as tidal and Faytis) is basically a insta-loss if you open almost any level 2 against Jewel. Almost exactly the same argument as DG except without spoon-feeding it to you. I truly thought you were either wishful thinking, ignorant, or Falkow-biased. What I've learned from this thread is that you place an extremely unrealistic burden of proof onto others that do not fall in line with your views. And that is annoying to interact with.

A lot of us around here also believe in the "innocent until proven guilty" claim for card power levels-you were just behind the curve on jewel.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby GonFreeces31 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:58 pm

Romdeau wrote:Just because I did not spout the words "mediator SS" exactly, my specific argument that opening with a level 2 unit against a jewel was basically a insta loss-was somehow weak or irrelevant? You didn't even provide a counter argument except for "well that's an empirical issue" and I couldn't believe it. I basically said the advantage of sp generated from a fast soul skill in conjunction with Falkow's return tools (such as tidal and Faytis) is basically a insta-loss if you open almost any level 2 against Jewel. Almost exactly the same argument as DG except without spoon-feeding it to you. I truly thought you were either wishful thinking, ignorant, or Falkow-biased. What I've learned from this thread is that you place an extremely unrealistic burden of proof onto others that do not fall in line with your views. And that is annoying to interact with.


Because if you open with a level 2 unit against Jewel (with a +2 SP SS) you still get an even game. There is only a temporary SP advantage - which is normal for pretty much every Alteil game. You don't need to play Jewel in order to A) get to your first soul skill before the opponent, and B) the opponent can follow with a 1-3 progression (which they can't if Mediator SS is there). Tidal and Faytis work with any basic falkow opening and there is nothing unique about it's interaction with Jewel that isn't also true with something like a Cath open. I know you can play Faytis sooner, but in a lot of cases it's far better to play Faytis later.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby AqvasFire2 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:04 pm

Also, the issue with Jewel compared to other level 2s is that it gets itself off the field, allowing you to Faytis that much quicker without risk. For anyone who's made the oops of playing Faytis when they still had their Cath or sage on the field and went with the odds and got their face rolled by the RNG, you know what I'm talking about.

See, the whole argument of "it creates a temporary SP advantage", while valid, can get pretty rough pretty quickly when Faytis, Tidal, and Cyclone are involved, since those cards *do* create SP advantage, and against Falkow, every game is an SP game. If you can keep Falkow from accumulating SP, you more or less win right there (which is why Lawtia just gives Falkow the finger), but at the same time, if Falkow can easily generate an SP advantage, it can just tee off with SP-trading grimoires and that's that.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby Romdeau » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:22 pm

AqvasFire2 wrote:Also, the issue with Jewel compared to other level 2s is that it gets itself off the field, allowing you to Faytis that much quicker without risk. For anyone who's made the oops of playing Faytis when they still had their Cath or sage on the field and went with the odds and got their face rolled by the RNG, you know what I'm talking about.

See, the whole argument of "it creates a temporary SP advantage", while valid, can get pretty rough pretty quickly when Faytis, Tidal, and Cyclone are involved, since those cards *do* create SP advantage, and against Falkow, every game is an SP game. If you can keep Falkow from accumulating SP, you more or less win right there (which is why Lawtia just gives Falkow the finger), but at the same time, if Falkow can easily generate an SP advantage, it can just tee off with SP-trading grimoires and that's that.

That was my exact argument about 10 pages ago. Glad we agree.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby GonFreeces31 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:42 pm

AqvasFire2 wrote:Also, the issue with Jewel compared to other level 2s is that it gets itself off the field, allowing you to Faytis that much quicker without risk.

Why does using faytis now, verse turn 4 make a difference? In both cases the opponent will be down 1-2 SP. Not to mention that in many cases Faytis isn't even useful like if it's verse a standard 1-3-1-3 open. Your argument is based on creating an SP advantage, and not the temporal aspect. Once again, Jewel only affects the temporal aspect, NOT the relative difference in SP advantages.

I'm just saying from a person who has relied on Faytis to win games for years now, this argument of "sooner faytis = OP" sounds really flimsy. When I used to play a lot of Mirelia and Serpent I would always drop Faytis AFTER playing Mirelia or Sea Hunter and generally saw no point in rushing it.

So once again to be clear, obviously Faytis creates an SP advantage, but Faytis, by definition of what it does, is only useful in a select number of cases and is many times useless. So you're arguing about a subset games, which is akin to saying, "Vonderam is OP because he is too strong verse level 3 rushes." Additionally, Faytis can be used when you open Jewel OR you open cath. Personally, I find Cath - MoF - Faytis to be superior to Jewel - Tidal - Faytis. Once again, you aren't comparing Jewel open with Cath open, and you're not addressing the temporal aspect of the SP edge.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby Icyman2 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:43 pm

I should have said faytis after a level 4 drop, though sometimes if your opponent has a level 2 on the field only you want to faytis before he plays the level 3 next turn.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby GonFreeces31 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:44 pm

Icyman2 wrote:I should have said faytis after a level 4 drop, though sometimes if your opponent has a level 2 on the field only you want to faytis before he plays the level 3 next turn.

This is a good strategy that has nothing to do with Jewel.
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Re: Nerf Jewel of the Deep Sea

Postby Icyman2 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:49 pm

GonFreeces31 wrote:
Icyman2 wrote:I should have said faytis after a level 4 drop, though sometimes if your opponent has a level 2 on the field only you want to faytis before he plays the level 3 next turn.

This is a good strategy that has nothing to do with Jewel.

I meant to say plays the level 1 next turn. It really depends though. If your opponent is going to leave 2 sp hanging, I would play plunder girl and drain him, not faytis the level 1.
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