Return Units

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Re: Return Units

Postby Pikeru » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:17 am

Icyglare wrote:If another person writes that arguments like yours suck, they are just restating an agreement of my pre-existing sentiment right?

That's correct. At the same time, they're also proving just how rude and insecure they are for unabashedly insulting others without given reason as you have repeatedly done. This does not improve your argument, it just shines a rather unbecoming light on you.

Icyglare wrote:Do you know what Shade used to do? -2sp, therefore if a weaker version exists its okay right?

Not sure why people keep bringing this up. To continually repeat it will eventually prove ignorance. It may be a weaker version, but that's like saying Chaos Sorcerer is a pale shadow of Chaos Soldier. That didn't stop him from being banned as well. Even if a card is an embarrassingly pathetic copy of another uber broken card in comparison, it can still be a savagely overpowered card in its own right. This goes to further prove the overwhelming strength of the original. Guess I have to repeat myself again..., rather than Shade being a 1-mana creature that says "Destroy 2 lands", it's now a 1-mana creature that says "Destroy 1 land". You love using Counterspell as an example and it's the same cost as Sinkhole. What if Shade were a 1-mana creature with flash that said "Counter a spell"? This point still stands. Matter-of-factly, most would say Counterspell itself is a weaker version of Force of Will and people often do believe this should be banned.

Icyglare wrote:Why does it have to be lv3? Because I was just going to list everything above and below LV3.

You said lvl 3 Return, that's why it has to be 3, because that's what you yourself specified. Go ahead and name everything off, but only the ones immune to Dio+Assassin+Waterspout+Jerry will do. Everything that is not immune to all of these falls victim to this mechanic.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Icyglare » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:43 am

Pikeru wrote:That's correct. At the same time, they're also proving just how rude and insecure they are for unabashedly insulting others without given reason as you have repeatedly done. This does not improve your argument, it just shines a rather unbecoming light on you.

You can be insecure all you want about your arguments but there is a given reason. Your argument sucks. How am I supposed to tell a person how their arguments suck when their sucky arguments suck without telling them that their arguments suck?

Pikeru wrote:Not sure why people keep bringing this up. To continually repeat it will eventually prove ignorance. It may be a weaker version, but that's like saying Chaos Sorcerer is a pale shadow of Chaos Soldier. Blah blah, my argument sucks; how unbecoming of icyglare, hohoho. This goes to further prove the overwhelming strength of the original. Guess I have to repeat myself again..., Return QQ Return QQ. You love using Counterspell as an example and it's the same cost as Sinkhole. What if Shade were a 1-mana creature with flash that said "Counter a spell"? This point still stands. Matter-of-factly, most would say Counterspell itself is a weaker version of Force of Will and people often do believe this should be banned.


Duh, it's because you brought up Mana Drain. No, your point doesn't stand because the whole point of your argument their were stronger used cards in MTG, well there's stronger used cards in Alteil. Suppose LV3 Return gave the caster the sp of the creature removed, suppose suppose. Maybe the inexperienced cry about LV3 Return.

You want to have QQ arguments about LV3 Return or Return mechanics? This game only allows you 25 cards in your file so construction is tight already, you fill your slots with LV3 returns and face an opponent without level 3s, there's an automatic disadvantage. Just like how you can face immune to blue creatures, people can summon immune to LV3 return units.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Callonia » Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:20 am

Icyglare wrote:You want to have QQ arguments about LV3 Return or Return mechanics? This game only allows you 25 cards in your file so construction is tight already, you fill your slots with LV3 returns and face an opponent without level 3s, there's an automatic disadvantage. Just like how you can face immune to blue creatures, people can summon immune to LV3 return units.


I was gonna stay out of this but, White Knight in mtg is better than any immune creatures in Alteil :P

I like watching White Knight slash all those foul black creatures makes me think about EN being annihilated.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Scientiafide » Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:58 pm

Pikeru wrote:
Icyglare wrote:
Scientiafide wrote:Pikeru was saying that if everyone is using shade, the win % of players using shade would be 50% (since everyone's using it).

Anyway, to the matter of return and shade, I will say that in magic the gathering the card common to all mono-red decks are mountains. Since every red-deck win uses mountains, does this mean mountains are op?


Did you read my mind, I was gonna post about the overuse of Mountains in MTG also!

The most absurd argument that could be thought of. Land is staple because it's MTG's source of SP. Mountains are NOT 1 cost creatures that say "Destroy target land." Just like Alteil needs SP to play cards, MTG almost always needs land to play cards. There's no cards that can be compared to land since it's been translated to a game mechanic that automatically gives you 2 land each turn.
Romdeau wrote:Cards that are auto-includes because of their flexibility (ability to use in just about any file) does not alone warrant a nerf.

You may not be aware of this, but shade was the target of a rather heavy nerf a long time ago. So it's not like these cards are immune or something.

I'm more than well aware of Shade's so-called "nerf" it's had in the past, I've referenced it multiple times before as do countless others, a person who's been paying attention would've noticed. However, it wasn't nearly enough to lower its power or usage in the slightest. Rather than a 1 cost creature that says "destroy two target lands" it's now still a 1 cost creature that says "destroy target land". This kind of card would never exist in a balanced game and is still enough to influence every single deck's opening options in this game and limits them to a very select few or risk having your entire strategy countered since turn 1. This is a monotony and is not healthy. I'll quote myself yet again, "The closest card of this type of effect is Sinkhole from MTG which costs twice as much AND is not a creature", which is an important point in this game as creatures here refund their cost and trigger a SS when they die.

You claim flexibility doesn't warrant a nerf, yet every other game disagrees with this sentiment. Generic cards such as: Skullclamp, Moxes+Black Lotus(MTG), Overload(Vs.), Pot of Greed, Magician of Faith, Mirror Force and countless others(Yugioh). I can confidently tell you none of these cards would've needed banning if they only worked in 1 specific archetype and/or had a restriction limiting them to those archetypes. Matter-of-factly, most have them have already been successfully reprinted into specific archetypes with restrictions and without incident since.



I don't think you understood the mountain argument. The point I was making (and that Icy was probably thinking of :D) is that cards that are commonly used are not necessarily overpowered. They may be commonly used because they fit a niche and/or necessary role that no other cards can fill. In the case of shade, there are no other lvl 1 cards that can be played as part of an opening strategy (all the others require a specific strategy and/or aren't fit to be opened with); furthermore, there's only one other card that drains sp on open (Night wing wyvern, and it's a lvl 4). It's so bad, I'd actually recommend players open with something besides shade on turn 1 because it's almost always dodged. But the thing is, if you're playing a lvl 3 rush and you open with a lvl 2, what lvl 1 are you going to use to bridge the gap? Return fits into the same category, it's one of a few cards that affects units on open that fits into the falkow strategy of isolating the enemy. Out of all of those cards, it affects lvl 3s most efficiently (and lvl 3 cards are the most commonly played card). I think we can agree that without lvl 1s, a lawtia rush is doomed to fail, and similarly without isolating enemy units a falkow file will meet a similar fate.

To give you an idea of what these cards would be like using MTG, imagine if MTG only had one card that countered cards, or only one card that let's you draw cards; in such an instance, you'd bet that every single control deck would run it not necessarily because it's overpowered, but because the card type is a necessity for the deck to function. Hence, in essence these cards are more like mountains in red decks than you'd think ;)
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Re: Return Units

Postby Pikeru » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:28 am

Callonia wrote:
Icyglare wrote:You want to have QQ arguments about LV3 Return or Return mechanics? This game only allows you 25 cards in your file so construction is tight already, you fill your slots with LV3 returns and face an opponent without level 3s, there's an automatic disadvantage. Just like how you can face immune to blue creatures, people can summon immune to LV3 return units.


I was gonna stay out of this but, White Knight in mtg is better than any immune creatures in Alteil :P

I like watching White Knight slash all those foul black creatures makes me think about EN being annihilated.

Personally I prefer Silver Knight, but they're both basically the same creature, so it comes to personal taste on that point. A 2/2 for 2 with first strike is already a powerful card worth main-decking, protection is just an added bonus or makes it a side-worthy option as well.

Science:
I understand the claim's of Basic Land being "overplayed", it's just nonsensical. If you'd let me borrow that concept, I'd like to say gaining 2sp at the beginning of every turn is also an overplayed "card". Please, I beg you to state something logical that's overplayed. I'll even help you: Lightning Bolt, Birds of Paradise, Force of Will(again), Swords to Plowshares, Dark Ritual. I gave you something for every color, you just have to pick and choose the one you want for your argument against me. In fact, use all five if you're really undecided. Shade and Nightwing are definitely not the only creatures to grand theft sp on opening, most obvious also include Zu-Jyuva, but the list also includes Nightmare Given Form and Curse on the World. On to good openings for Lawtia if Shade stopped monopolizing this game: Chaos Lady/Annarose, Ruler of Crest/Eskatia, Crest Orderly, Gangadore+Domina, Sabeteur, Aide, Mediator. Those last 3 not only bridge the gap before playing a lvl 3, but also let you splash a second color. Shade does not fill the niche of opening unit, there are countless other options that would see play if it would just give them the chance. Unfortunately, this won't happen while Shade remains the way it is because Shade is not just a way of punishing players who refuse to submit to conformity, it also counters the opponent's Shade guaranteeing that transition into the lvl 3 if the case may be.

You claim Return becomes a liability against players who don't use lvl 3 creatures and this is true to some degree. I'd like to point out a few other cards that become huge minuses if your opponent doesn't use creatures: Tribe-Infecting Virus, Raigeki, Royal Oppression, Crush Card Virus, Change of Heart, Snatch Steal, Brain Control, I think 7 examples are enough. If a card is broken, it doesn't matter if it's a liability in a select few match-ups, the card is still broken regardless.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Icyglare » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:48 am

Now only if you can come up with good reasons on why it's broken.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Icyman2 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:18 pm

wtf
shade is perhaps the most interesting card in this game. it shapes opens like no other.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Scientiafide » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:13 pm

Pikeru wrote:
Callonia wrote:
Icyglare wrote:You want to have QQ arguments about LV3 Return or Return mechanics? This game only allows you 25 cards in your file so construction is tight already, you fill your slots with LV3 returns and face an opponent without level 3s, there's an automatic disadvantage. Just like how you can face immune to blue creatures, people can summon immune to LV3 return units.


I was gonna stay out of this but, White Knight in mtg is better than any immune creatures in Alteil :P

I like watching White Knight slash all those foul black creatures makes me think about EN being annihilated.

Personally I prefer Silver Knight, but they're both basically the same creature, so it comes to personal taste on that point. A 2/2 for 2 with first strike is already a powerful card worth main-decking, protection is just an added bonus or makes it a side-worthy option as well.

Science:
I understand the claim's of Basic Land being "overplayed", it's just nonsensical. If you'd let me borrow that concept, I'd like to say gaining 2sp at the beginning of every turn is also an overplayed "card". Please, I beg you to state something logical that's overplayed. I'll even help you: Lightning Bolt, Birds of Paradise, Force of Will(again), Swords to Plowshares, Dark Ritual. I gave you something for every color, you just have to pick and choose the one you want for your argument against me. In fact, use all five if you're really undecided. Shade and Nightwing are definitely not the only creatures to grand theft sp on opening, most obvious also include Zu-Jyuva, but the list also includes Nightmare Given Form and Curse on the World. On to good openings for Lawtia if Shade stopped monopolizing this game: Chaos Lady/Annarose, Ruler of Crest/Eskatia, Crest Orderly, Gangadore+Domina, Sabeteur, Aide, Mediator. Those last 3 not only bridge the gap before playing a lvl 3, but also let you splash a second color. Shade does not fill the niche of opening unit, there are countless other options that would see play if it would just give them the chance. Unfortunately, this won't happen while Shade remains the way it is because Shade is not just a way of punishing players who refuse to submit to conformity, it also counters the opponent's Shade guaranteeing that transition into the lvl 3 if the case may be.

You claim Return becomes a liability against players who don't use lvl 3 creatures and this is true to some degree. I'd like to point out a few other cards that become huge minuses if your opponent doesn't use creatures: Tribe-Infecting Virus, Raigeki, Royal Oppression, Crush Card Virus, Change of Heart, Snatch Steal, Brain Control, I think 7 examples are enough. If a card is broken, it doesn't matter if it's a liability in a select few match-ups, the card is still broken regardless.


The only lvl 1 you listed were moxies and domina. Moxies already see tons of play in multi-sphere files, and no one will open with gangadore + domina because it's a huge sp liability (since gangadore drains you 1 sp and a sphere level, and gangadore costs sp to revive). To be honest, judging by the suggestions you made it seems you're rather new to this game (no one opens with Eskatia, it makes more sense to open with dagon in an EN file). It's kind of brash to go around telling all the vets of this game they're wrong about this topic when you have little experience playing this game. But anyway, yes you can open with a lvl 2 on turn 1, but like I asked in my earlier post, what lvl 1 would you use to bridge the gap to the lvl 3 (again, another viable lvl 1 does not exist)? Playing shade on turn 2 does not make sense since most players play a lvl 3 on that turn, hence why players play it on turn 1. Honestly, I wish there was an alternative to shade as an opening because turn 1 shade hardly ever lands. Also, all the sp draining units you mentioned are lvl 4+, which does not make sense in a lvl 3 rush file (which is what I was getting at). So yes, shade DOES fill a necessary role as pretty much the only viable lawtia lvl 1 to bridge the gap between units, and as the only unit capable of draining sp on open for lvl 3 files.

As for the MTG argument, the thing is all the cards you listed have an alternative (due to MTG's incredibly large cardpool). There are other cheap burn spells instead of lightning bolt, there are other cheap mana-accelerating cards instead of birds, there are other counters besides force of will, etc. Shade is the only card of it's kind in this game (ie the only lvl 1 bridge card, and the only low level sp drainer on open).

All that aside, shade is a balanced card. If it lands, it steals 1 sp and generates an advantage, but if it doesn't land the player gets stuck with arguably the worst lvl 1 one can field in the game. Considering that the card's open is dodgeable I'm not sure what there is to complain about.
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Re: Return Units

Postby Icyman2 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:21 pm

worst would be dryad
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Re: Return Units

Postby Scientiafide » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:42 pm

Icyman2 wrote:worst would be dryad


That's true, dryad only has agi 1 and it's 10 def usually doesn't stop anything. On the plus side, dryad always lands it's +10 def open.
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