Set 5 Card Balance

User suggestions to improve the game

Re: Is there going to be an Errata for set 5?

Postby Peralisc2 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:02 am

EN is said to be able to shut down Primclone - actually, not really. A third turn cyclone from the Primclone player, while not as effective as it could be, gives no SP advantage but still takes Dagon and its grimbane off the filed while leaving no LP trigger for Fierte. When Antilla uses her skill once or twice, that advantage the EN player obtains from Fierte is negligible. Succubus->Succubus can be seen a mile away and prepared for accordingly. The reason why Primclone is the problematic aspect of these files is because level 1-4 files are much more numerous than big files; this is supported by the number of cards released of each level range.

The only legitimate win against a Primclone player I've witnessed was when Dagon (who was followed immediately by Eskatia) got extremely lucky and targeted all 3 copies of Cyclone in the first three turns. And even that game was really close, boiling down to luck of two 4 agi units.

I am starting to have superiority complexes...
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Re: Is there going to be an Errata for set 5?

Postby Cotillion » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:54 am

InigoMontoya wrote:Ok, first, let's deal with your erroneous statement "has been." That is clearly factually wrong. Are you aware of the highest RP ever generated in U.S. Alteil? Mavel's 2258. What file did Mavel ride to that level? EM. Have they nerfed EM? Maybe a little bit by trying to buff EN this set (i.e. Night Soul). What file was the second highest RP? Fierte EN pre-Dagon nerf. They have for sure nerfed that. As Skewer says, Fierte EN is still seeing effective action. You have no evidence that Primclone is as dominating as those files were in their time, so I recommend you drop that argument. .


I should have qualified the statement with no file has been as dominant since Primclone has been out. Since Primclone combo came out no other file archetype has been as effective against all other files as primclone. Maybe Fierte EN comes close but from the forums + knowing what the highest RP players used a lot at least some of the time, it is not accurate to say there is no evidence about primclone. Not complete evidence for sure since many players use different files to get their high RP. You, Inigo ran both Primclone and EN last set I believe. But there is definitely some supporting evidence, incomplete as it is.

Of course no one can know for sure since we do not have access to all evidence. No player can have access to the actual evidence to support their observations. It is erroneous on your behalf to simply bring up one isolated example (Mavel). That is not statistically valid argument or supporting evidence for your case either.


InigoMontoya wrote: A couple of weeks ago the dominant meta file was SK. I am open to understanding Worthing's particular implementation of Primclone, because a 60 game win streak stands out. I agree with you wholeheartedly that such a high streak has significance. Are there any other Primcloner's with 30+ game win streaks? Is it Worthing's brilliance with Primclone only? Maybe it's not Primclone that is the problem, but rather Shinclone or Allindclone? I don't know.


Not sure what you are meaning by dominant meta file a couple of weeks ago.Do you mean file by most of the highest RP players? Or just the popular build because of new cards that can win a bit.
Can SK beat Primclone in most cases? On paper I don't see how that would be possible since SK is mostly lvl2-3 units. I don't see SK played by any of the high RP players I ever play against or watch, perhaps you could recommend a match to watch?

And yes PrimEX certainly seems to be the difference maker even more than Shin and Allind who just seal the deal. It is the ability to render level 4 units vulnerable to cyclone and level 5 to simple Return that makes Primclone so potent against so many files.
Another factor is many that could run Primclone simply don't since it is old archetype and some would rather run something new (SK) that might not win as often.

But you of course could experiment yourself Inigo. Try running your file without EX Prim and see if it performs just as good.

I just tried something similar though I dont have all cards for proper primclone/allind. Admittedly this would not be valid statistical evidence either but 1 game the second I played EX-Prim immediately opponent quits and by comments made, clearly viewed Ex-Prim cyclone as unbeatable with his file. Other game trying to run Shin+Cyclone and opponent is not afraid and goes on to win.

So maybe try to experiment and bring back the results. You have ability to test different files and get better perspective on what is or is not the more overpowering combos. Try it.
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Re: Is there going to be an Errata for set 5?

Postby luckysvn777 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:37 pm

I don't see SK played by any of the high RP players I ever play against or watch, perhaps you could recommend a match to watch?


I was at top RP for about a couple weeks with SK.


Other than that, I agree pretty much with Cotillion and Harterial's posts.. i'd qualify them even more, but I don't have the time right now. But I enjoyed them regardless ;th2
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Re: Is there going to be an Errata for set 5?

Postby Peralisc2 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:40 pm

I don't see SK played by any of the high RP players I ever play against or watch, perhaps you could recommend a match to watch?

I have a SK deck mirror of Romdeou and Mavel that i didn't feel like rendering since it seems quite boring to watch. But if you think those are high RP enough and want to take a look at it then i might upload it ... when i have time.
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Re: Is there going to be an Errata for set 5?

Postby InigoMontoya » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:42 pm

Cotillion wrote:
InigoMontoya wrote:Ok, first, let's deal with your erroneous statement "has been." That is clearly factually wrong.

I should have qualified the statement with no file has been as dominant since Primclone has been out. Since Primclone combo came out no other file archetype has been as effective against all other files as primclone.

I agree that you should not have stated that no other file archetype has been as effective as Primclone against so many other file archetypes. You didn’t have the evidence to back that original statement up, and I had strong evidence that EM was actually the most effective file archetype of all time in U.S. Aleil. But you then state that since the Primclone combo came into common use, no other file archetype has been as effective against all other files as Primclone. Let’s put that assertion on the back burner for now as we explore your next line of reasoning.
Cotillion wrote:
InigoMontoya wrote:You have no evidence that Primclone is as dominating as those files were in their time, so I recommend you drop that argument.

Maybe Fierte EN comes close but from the forums + knowing what the highest RP players used a lot at least some of the time, it is not accurate to say there is no evidence about primclone. Not complete evidence for sure since many players use different files to get their high RP. You, Inigo ran both Primclone and EN last set I believe. But there is definitely some supporting evidence, incomplete as it is.
Of course no one can know for sure since we do not have access to all evidence. No player can have access to the actual evidence to support their observations. It is erroneous on your behalf to simply bring up one isolated example (Mavel). That is not statistically valid argument or supporting evidence for your case either.

Let’s not delve into whether Elo rating systems are statistically valid. First, all I ask is that you have integrity and hold yourself to the same requirements for “evidence” to which you hold me. I am more than happy to have statistical validity be the threshold for evidence of Primclone’s domination. If you like, we can reach an impasse where both of us say that neither of us can statistically back anything we have written and there’s no need for further discussion. We can’t say anything about any file archetype at that point. However, if we both agree to put aside the requirement for statistically validated data, then I have provided the current gold standard for file effectiveness in Alteil: RP. RP is the currency for measuring a file’s effectiveness. Winning streaks would probably be the second best way to measure file effectiveness, but streaks are not as good measure as RP because RP takes into consideration the caliber of the opponents you face.

You said that no player has access to the actual evidence to support their observations, but RP is available. So actually, Mavel’s RP of 2258 for EM and my RP of 2235 for pre-nerfed Dagon EN are the best data we have for file effectiveness. And if an Iczer hits the 2200’s with a Primclone file, you will have good data to support your position as well.
Cotillion wrote:Try running your file without EX Prim and see if it performs just as good.

This experiment would not demonstrate that EX Primrose is the problem. How about I try running the file without Proxy of Flame / Pullermia? If it is less effective, should we nerf Pullermia? How about I try running SK without Knight of the 3rd Shrine? If it is less effective, should we nerf that card too?

You are coming at the problem like a scientist and that’s reasonable. You are looking to control for a variable and testing the effect. We have done that for Primclone already, actually. What you may forget is that EX Primrose came out between Sets 3 and 4. Mavel’s 2258 and my 2235 were both achieved at the end of Set 3 in the presence of Primclone. Most Iczers agree that Set 4 was a fairly balanced state for U.S. Alteil and Primclone was certainly not as effective as Set 3 EM/EN. The high for Set 4 was Galandros’ 2137 (and towards the end of that Set he was mainly grinding EM – although he used quite a variety of decks).

I said we’d get back to your contention that, “Since Primclone combo came out no other file archetype has been as effective against all other files as Primclone.” Well, the RP evidence doesn’t support that statement. Primclone was around last Set. Right now, Worthing has 2030 RP. It may be that something is out of balance, but it would be something in Set 5, not Primclone. That’s why I suggested ShinClone.
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Re: Is there going to be an Errata for set 5?

Postby exemplar » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:13 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:Let’s not delve into whether Elo rating systems are statistically valid. First, all I ask is that you have integrity and hold yourself to the same requirements for “evidence” to which you hold me. I am more than happy to have statistical validity be the threshold for evidence of Primclone’s domination. If you like, we can reach an impasse where both of us say that neither of us can statistically back anything we have written and there’s no need for further discussion. We can’t say anything about any file archetype at that point. However, if we both agree to put aside the requirement for statistically validated data, then I have provided the current gold standard for file effectiveness in Alteil: RP. RP is the currency for measuring a file’s effectiveness. Winning streaks would probably be the second best way to measure file effectiveness, but streaks are not as good measure as RP because RP takes into consideration the caliber of the opponents you face.

You said that no player has access to the actual evidence to support their observations, but RP is available. So actually, Mavel’s RP of 2258 for EM and my RP of 2235 for pre-nerfed Dagon EN are the best data we have for file effectiveness. And if an Iczer hits the 2200’s with a Primclone file, you will have good data to support your position as well.


As the person who placed third thanks to Primclone during the end of set 3 / ex 3 (If you look at the rankings, right after those 2 mentioned names/rp comes mine) I can attest that had I not forced myself to take a break I would have had the chance to improve my RP from 2175 to the 2200 RP threshold that you seem to consider a golden benchmark for a file's effectiveness. Even discounting my performance, Galandros was easily 2200+ RP at one point playing Big Red Primclone, and would have stayed there had he not received a few unfavorable duel pairings.

InigoMontoya wrote:This experiment would not demonstrate that EX Primrose is the problem. How about I try running the file without Proxy of Flame / Pullermia? If it is less effective, should we nerf Pullermia? How about I try running SK without Knight of the 3rd Shrine? If it is less effective, should we nerf that card too?

You are coming at the problem like a scientist and that’s reasonable. You are looking to control for a variable and testing the effect. We have done that for Primclone already, actually. What you may forget is that EX Primrose came out between Sets 3 and 4. Mavel’s 2258 and my 2235 were both achieved at the end of Set 3 in the presence of Primclone. Most Iczers agree that Set 4 was a fairly balanced state for U.S. Alteil and Primclone was certainly not as effective as Set 3 EM/EN. The high for Set 4 was Galandros’ 2137 (and towards the end of that Set he was mainly grinding EM – although he used quite a variety of decks).

I said we’d get back to your contention that, “Since Primclone combo came out no other file archetype has been as effective against all other files as Primclone.” Well, the RP evidence doesn’t support that statement. Primclone was around last Set. Right now, Worthing has 2030 RP. It may be that something is out of balance, but it would be something in Set 5, not Primclone. That’s why I suggested ShinClone.


I'm going to contest your claim that Galandros grinded with EM. As someone who tried to grind wins and then RP during the last 2 weeks of set 4, I ran into Galandros several times. Galandros was playing Big Red Primclone majority of the times I fought him, and yes I did lose each time he played Primclone against me. Even during the last few hours Galandros played during set 4 season, I watched a few of his games and he was playing Big Red Primclone more often than EM.

If my observations are a good sample instead of a skewed one of what Galandros actually played during the last leg of set 4 season, it would actually prove that PrimClone was just as dominating as EM according to your reasoning.
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Re: Is there going to be an Errata for set 5?

Postby InigoMontoya » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:19 pm

Thanks, Exemplar - I believe you about Galandros. I must have just happened to run into him when he was using EM on the rare occasion.

I also accept your word that you could have grinded up to 2200 with Primclone.

I now stand corrected and will bow out of defending Primclone.
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Re: Is there going to be an Errata for set 5?

Postby luckysvn777 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:12 pm

Not that's its necessary, but I do second exemplar's post, both about his file and Galandros. Remembering back, I've seen Galandros play that far more than EM.

Although for some reason he always strikes me having a Big Red with Primclone than a Primclone with Big Red type of file...
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Re: Set 5 card balance?

Postby Romdeau » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:36 am

Stop ignoring this thread. Put all of your set 5 card balance ideas under this thread. If you choose to make another set 5 card balance thread I will simply lock it.
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Re: Is there going to be an Errata for set 5?

Postby Peralisc2 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:35 am

InigoMontoya wrote:Thanks, Exemplar - I believe you about Galandros. I must have just happened to run into him when he was using EM on the rare occasion.

It seemed to me like he played 98% of the time EM. :/
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