Voluntary Handicap setting

User suggestions to improve the game

Re: Voluntary Handicap setting

Postby Pancakes » Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:08 am

CallMeWBC wrote:You can handicap yourself by playing wrong cards/skills at the wrong time on purpose.



I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you don't see that your cards give you an advantage over newbies who are already less experienced than you are. I'm just trying to speak up for those who don't even post because they aren't enthusiasts and they just want to play for fun. They aren't trying to "master the game" They aren't trying to "learn a big lesson" they just want the oppurtunity to compete. I mean what does it prove to beat one of them anyway? To beat a gowen starter with Alind or a Falkow starter with StarDragon I just don't get what the statement is taht is being made.

You have to recognize that most people aren't going to be "Alteil purists". They just want a fighting chance to win. And don't you want some bonus EXP? You could look at it as "competitive training arena" Maybe if they hand out point cards for every 3 handicap wins more people would be lining up for this sort of thing.
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Re: Voluntary Handicap setting

Postby luckysvn777 » Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:37 am

I do love the fact you continue to only compare everything to the Refess starter in your examples. News flash. The Refess starter is kinda weak.

However, a well-played Gowen Rush can give Shrine Knights trouble, especially if Ball of Flame and even row damage SS (*gasp* so horrible) is involved. I happen to lose one of the key units (say, zero or 3rd) and i'm in trouble.

Same goes with Falkow. A well played Witch open and very key timing with Return can ruin me. Magic Scythe could be used very effective here along with other pinpoint units. I've had a loss to this kind of open before.

I've even almost lost to a mod-lawt starter that was a semi-lycan rush. (so, lawt starter + succi). It came down to some very lucky AGI draws there.


The best part? This is Shrine Knights we are talking about, which is arguably the best rush in the game, and thus naturally better than the starter files by default... and they still can fight back. Move on to other files that aren't designed to handle rush as well, and the starters really become potent.


The theme in all of the above? Experience. You have to know how to unlock the file's potential and know how to time the SS to do maximum damage. Its just that most of the time, I have full knowledge of their file and know what to expect and can predict, while they lack the knowledge to do that. More matches is the only way to gain that knowledge. And/or coming to chat and forums and learning indirectly. But I will walk over an inexperienced gowen rush any day.

Giving them a handicap won't change that. It will only delay their growth.
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Re: Voluntary Handicap setting

Postby Phenoca » Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:22 pm

CallMeWBC wrote:You can handicap yourself by playing wrong cards/skills at the wrong time on purpose.

But not gain the EXP-bonus.

luckysvn777 wrote:most of the time, I have full knowledge of their file and know what to expect and can predict, while they lack the knowledge to do that. More matches is the only way to gain that knowledge. And/or coming to chat and forums and learning indirectly. But I will walk over an inexperienced gowen rush any day.

Giving them a handicap won't change that. It will only delay their growth.

...

Pancakes wrote:deactivating 2 random soul skills and sending say 5 random cards from his hand directly to the cemetary

If the latter (sending 5 random cards to the cemetary) were the handicap, then newbies would only have to fight-off two copies instead of three. E.g. You have a chance against defeating doubles of Star Dragon, Guardian, Allind, Mercurial, Primrose, etc.

You are learning very little from a battle where you have never had any momentum, because learning from a losing-battle is self-destructive. I did this for 100+ matches, and now I know how to:
- Know what someone is playing
- Guess somebody's soul skills
- Guess the units in somebody's file
- Stall

So I am GREAT at stalling, but not much else.

luckysvn777 wrote:Giving them a handicap won't change that. It will only delay their growth.

Discouraging people from winning with metas stacked full of triples will not encourage growth. It is because of metas that you see newbies using their 2 LP SS before the 1 LP SS, and stuff like that. They feel that Alteil is a game of attrition, because they have never made a deep LP-claim, or been able to maintain field control in Folrart for more than one consecutive turn.

That's my opinion from a Set 1 Refess standpoint.
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Re: Voluntary Handicap setting

Postby CallMeWBC » Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:02 pm

Pancakes wrote:
CallMeWBC wrote:You can handicap yourself by playing wrong cards/skills at the wrong time on purpose.



I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you don't see that your cards give you an advantage over newbies who are already less experienced than you are. I'm just trying to speak up for those who don't even post because they aren't enthusiasts and they just want to play for fun. They aren't trying to "master the game" They aren't trying to "learn a big lesson" they just want the oppurtunity to compete. I mean what does it prove to beat one of them anyway? To beat a gowen starter with Alind or a Falkow starter with StarDragon I just don't get what the statement is taht is being made.

You have to recognize that most people aren't going to be "Alteil purists". They just want a fighting chance to win. And don't you want some bonus EXP? You could look at it as "competitive training arena" Maybe if they hand out point cards for every 3 handicap wins more people would be lining up for this sort of thing.

It's "voluntary", so if you want to handicap your deck, go ahead and do it, but I am not going to handicap myself.
Why do I need the bonus exp anyway? I am already less than a level away from my next level up card, and after I got it, I won't be playing as much anyway.
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Re: Voluntary Handicap setting

Postby Peralisc2 » Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:03 pm

I say this should be added for people like pancakes, if it handicaps them enough there will be more winning low levels that would also be happier. Let pancackes and others get the beatings they ask for!
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Re: Voluntary Handicap setting

Postby luckysvn777 » Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:04 pm

Peralisc2 wrote:I say this should be added for people like pancakes, if it handicaps them enough there will be more winning low levels that would also be happier. Let pancackes and others get the beatings they ask for!


Lol fair enough :lol:
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Re: Voluntary Handicap setting

Postby Phenoca » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:40 pm

Just posting...
Case 1: If (Your Level - 2*Opponent's Level) / 5 <= 3
Then # of cards removed from file = (Half of Your Level - 2*Opponent's Level) / 5 rounded up

Case 2: If (Half of Your Level - 2*Opponent's Level) / 5 > 3
Then # of cards removed = (Half of Your Level - 2*Opponent's Level) / 10
And remove a random SS (including its LP) from your file.
flood + Pakistan = hunger
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Re: Voluntary Handicap setting

Postby Harion » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:03 pm

luckysvn777 wrote:In other words, according to you, the biggest handicap the new players have is lack of experience. And instead of giving them the experience they need and learn how good files are built and work, you'd rather them just get easy wins off of the two people who decide to auto-lose themselves to new players. Because being handicapped will not teach them how to beat and use Oversoul or Dalos or Exchange of Souls. It will just baby them until level 40, when they'll then get their "training wheels" removed and proceed to get their butt handed to them because they haven't had to actually make a good file to win.

how is handicapping not teaching newbies experience? they still get to see your file. they still get to see how you work it. it's not like handicapping will totally remake your deck into a starter deck. what handicapping does is give newbies a fighting chance and not have their **** totally handed back to them.
do you realize how demoralizing it is for a newbie with a starter deck to totally get creamed by advanced files? do you not understand that part of alteil's problem are caused by this unmerciful beatdown of newbs?
and did not the threadstarter suggest handicapping to be ONLY AN OPTION. what part of having an option not to handicap irritates you? this suggestion is for those that would like to handicap themselves to newbies. and getting more XP for it seems like a good tradeoff. after all, when the option was given to let your games be viewable to spectators or not, many chose to let others spectate even when that meant showing off their ss and deck tactics. and don't tell me that wasn't because of the bonus xp given. this idea seems like a very good idea and ifully support any attempts to implement this.
my suggestion though in handicapping is to take away the LP from the 2 soulcards with the highest LP values but not their ss effects. this way, newbies get to see all ss effects while handicapping only your life points.
My goal is not to win, but to have fun.
But since winning is fun, I can't help but to make winning my goal.
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Bear killing axe-man was meant to be what it's name suggests - a killer unit. Sadly, there were no bears to kill in Alteil.
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Re: Voluntary Handicap setting

Postby luckysvn777 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:36 am

I guess I'm the only one then that, thinking back to when I was a new player, if I got those wins by a handicap I would have been insulted more than happy.
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Re: Voluntary Handicap setting

Postby NoFish » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:37 pm

luckysvn777 wrote:I guess I'm the only one then that, thinking back to when I was a new player, if I got those wins by a handicap I would have been insulted more than happy.


Don't worry, lucky, I would have to.
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