New ideas for retention: let's just fix the veterans

[VanGopher]

I've already tried to come up with ideas to make getting hammered less painful for noobs. Now I'd like to brainstorm ways to make it less boring, and maybe less likely.

You know how some veterans (who shall remain nameless) have been playing one meta-file over and over and over again ever since set 5 came out? Like, hundreds of matches with the same file? In just a few weeks? I think this is boring off the noobs, who have absolutely no hope whatsoever against a primeclone / athira shin combo. Unlike noobs, I have a shot against these files, but I'm still not particularly interested in playing with them...again.

But right now, there are strong incentives for just noob grinding, and I'd like to discuss ways to work around them. Here are the incentives:

1) you must win to get weekly gran;
2) you must win to level up;
3) you must have gran to win;
4) if you lose, you lose weekly gran;
5) if you lose to a noob, your RP takes a nosedive;
6) so you must be sure to kill noobs extra hard. With Primclone. Over and over again. QED.

How do we encourage people to ditch the meta (or broaden it, if you're feeling generous) at the cost of wins? Alternatively, how do we separate the grinders from the folks who want to mess around with weird (less good) files in the company of other people who're playing weird (less good) files of their own?

I'm not trying to cast aspersions on my bare-knuckled friends in Folrart, whom I applaud for their dedication to file refinement and elegant play. I just want less primclones when I'm futzing around with magic doll - sniper -. Here are a couple of ideas I don't think I've heard yet:

1) I love Challenge of the Fortnight. Last night I dueled skewer and he played something weird...to get his five wins, I assume. He got one off me. I immediately went out and started making my own CotF files, which are far from top-flight files but pretty fun against non-metas. Of course, knowing that you're going to be playing against metas with your deliberately handicapped file takes some of the fun out of your creative process. And yes, any file with elder druid in it is handicapped by definition. But in principle, I want more challenges like that - things that encourage veterans to play wacky.

And I'd like to see bigger bonuses for more wins. If it's off the meta and less competitive, I want someone to have a reason to shoot for 20 wins. Or 40 wins. Cards are all well and good, but I'd love it if there were some way to have a display counter or leaderboard for wins with junk files. Any thoughts on what that could look like?

2) What about a non-ladder open arena? Like Folrart, with experience and weekly gran and all that, but no RP? Maybe these same guys would just grind noobs there instead of in Folrart. The truth is, I don't really know whether the guys I discussed at the beginning are grinding for RP, or XP, or Weekly Gran. Maybe they just really love crushing noobs with the same file over and over again. In any event, it would be nice if we could separate that incentive from folks hungry for a little file variety. Or the noobs, who are hungry for a little not-getting-owned.

Yes, the meta files are excellent - but so are waffles, and you don't see me eating them at every meal.

Any thoughts?

[Peralisc2]

You just called my set 3 file handicapped... if that is really true and what you honestly think, then would you also tell to those that complained about it that they are douchebags? I doubt it.

People that play for fun also grind, i don't see how you want to separate that. What was suggested few 100 times is an RP arena and probably that is the only thing possible. As was mentioned before (also about 100 or more times) splitting the arena again may cause too much trouble with the playerbase.


What really helps is adding iniciatives for players to duel. Example would be those avatars next week or events where they ask everyone to duel 10 times or win 10 times to recieve some extra.


As for the title, i should spam 5 pages of wtf. You actualy mean grinders and not veterans and how else do you want the grinders to get what they want? Seems you havent thought even a bit about how it affects them.

[InigoMontoya]

I hear what you are striving for, Van. I consider myself pretty knowledgeable about the meta, and I don't think Primclone + Athira Shin is all that prevalent. It certainly is present, but there is a top level Refess file that is used by many more top Iczers right now. Be that as it may, I don't think 20 or 40 wins with 3 copies of any particular card would stop me from grinding. I'd just use my same deck, only with 22 cards and pack the handicaps. You can still Primclone with 3 Elder Druids. I'd suggest a 3 card combo with 3 copies of each and you need to shoot for 33 wins with that deck. That might shake up the Meta. I don't participate in CotF anymore because the judging is so arbitrary. My criterion for submissions was based on effectiveness (win percentage), but that wasn't what determined the winner. For me, it's not worth the hit to my RP to roll the dice on CotF because the result is out of my control. But if there were some way to win point cards by grinding, like with a deck that had 9 of my 25 cards already preselected, then I'd stop grinding RP and start playing alternative files. Weekly gran isn’t my personal goal – RP is, but I can only speak for myself. I’d forgo RP for the opportunity to grind point cards.

So for example, maybe you set a 2 week period for people to win 33 games with one file using Folrart Guardian, Boomerang Fighter and Rifleman Knight (3 copies of each card). The person who judges doesn't have to spend any time play testing - just looking through accounts to verify the file's win record. Maybe everyone who won 33 games would get 10 point cards and whoever won the most overall would get 20 point cards. Picking (Gowen + Refess) or (Lawtia + Falkow) combos of one stars is ideal because players wouldn’t need Proxies and might have a set of 3 of each of the cards.

It would certainly shake up the Meta.

[yamas11]

The no RP arena sounds like it could be good, but I think many players on Alteil might be Spikes, a nickname for players who get the most enjoyment only by winning. So even if there was a no RP arena, some Spikes might not care about that RP and might go into that arena with some top files just to get the winning sastifaction. Then it just all comes down to if the Alteil team decides if any nerfs should be made or if things are ok and the noobs will have to deal with it or play another game.

Then there's always the single player or training arena for playtesting.

[luckysvn777]

Eh, I play whatever file is fun for me. Usually that means it has to be my own unique version of a file (no copycatting), has to be able to get a decent amount of wins (i like feeling like i'm making progress, using RP as an indicator of that), and it has to fit my playstyle, which I won't bother explaining (cuz i dunno if i could). Also, I'm one of those people who like to take a file and push it to the max by playing it over and over again. I like to see just how far I can take a file and how to make it as perfect and as efficient as I can. Then, once the meta shifts against it, or once it reaches that maximum point (the RP cap I like to call it.. the equilibrium RP that, without an insane amount of luck, is usually hard to push past), I usually switch to something new. Sometimes I then come back to it (usually the following set) and remake it and start again.

Although, I like to also be unique, like I said... and it just so happened that the file I ended up picking this time becoming top meta. So now everyone's playing it. Which makes me no longer feel creative despite being one of the first. *sigh* what a drag. But at least most are playing someone else's version of it, so mine is still kinda unique.

When I feel like playing other files, I use training then.

Just some insight into the mindset of a "grinder". Maybe i'm alone in that thinking. But changes like that won't stop me from doing that. Its how i play.

[VanGopher]

Well, maybe that's the place to start:

What are the grinders after? Are they 'spikes'? Or do they have some other incentive?

- I'm all for letting grinders play any way they want. But I'd rather there was some way to opt out of the grind now and then.

Checking the post again - I've now seen lucky's reply. I think it's very insightful - I also think that for Lucky's mindset, every duel with a 1450 player is a waste of half an hour. He's striving for perfection: He's not going to get that against starter files. You too, Inigo - and I really like the 9 of 25 idea. Or maybe a 9 or 6 or X of 25, with a list of banned cards. You must play priestess of madness and sword of myseries X2 ...but you CANNOT play hell smoke.

I know all about the RP arena idea, and there's something about having an arbitrary cut-off point for what arenas you can compete in that just seems kind of...well - arbitrary. But if there was an arena that didn't affect RP, there wouldn't be much point in grinding there, because RP is how Lucky, as a grinder, measures his success.

Moreover, it wouldn't split the player base the way an RP arena would, because everyone would be free to use it. Try out your file w/o RP - when you're ready to challenge the top meta files (over and over again) just jump next door and let 'er rip. None of the other ninjas in Folrart? Bounce next door and play a duel without the RP pressure. Give a noob a hand.

Basically, all I'm saying is what if there was an arena like crest, but without a level cap? That ran parallel to Folrart? Seems like everyone wins, and nobody loses.

Peralisc: check it out - I changed the subject line just for you. I guess I'm not sold on the idea of incentives being the whole solution here...have they really worked so far? I think if they had, we all wouldn't be complaining about the small player base in Folrart. Sure, you're stoked about the new incentives to duel - but then again, you were dueling anyway. I think the problem, fundamentally, is with the transition from Crest to Folrart...I think changing the negative user experience for folks coming out of Crest is the key to retaining players.

[luckysvn777]

I also think that for Lucky's mindset, every duel with a 1450 player is a waste of half an hour. He's striving for perfection: He's not going to get that against starter files.

Not to mention the fact a loss to that just hurts. A lot. And it happens.

I've been wanting a non-rp arena for a while now that still counts as arena matches for a while now. Kinda like a hybrid training arena/folrart. A place where perhaps some weekly gran (1 per win, none per loss) is given and some exp (maybe only 5?) (not as much as Folrart) but no RP and such. Meaning losses aren't negative and people can play with fun files while still accomplishing something. That would be so great. For newbies and vets alike. (I'd love to be able to take a break from Folrart's "omg, better win or else" stress and play some fun matches that actually still mean something)

[Romdeau]

*reads thread title->*proceeds to protect groin area

[Peralisc2]

I've been reading through these sort of original ideas for a while now and NONE that was extreme in changing the game enviroment was taken into consideration.

To be fair i encourage inigos idea, seems to be the best solution. To take 3 random cards of 1 star and everyone playing those and winning a total of something gets the prize-chick.

[Skewer]

I've already gotten to the point where I just pick a random file to play now. Grinding a file to death just bores me after a while...to the point where I said **** it, and ran into folrart with elder druid...and came out 5 for 5 XD

But I agree there should be something to help reduce a stagnant meta...maybe a weekly banlist a la urban rivals. Instead of a RP arena, a limited arena might also work where the top 5% most used nonstarter cards in the past week would be banned from that arena that week. Meta grinders can just do their own thing in folrart, or they could catch on and join us in the limited arena.