The Card Duplicator Thread

User suggestions to improve the game

The Card Duplicator Thread

Postby DanTheTimid » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:38 pm

Seems like the card duplicator keeps being brought up and talked about all over the place lately so I figured it deserved its own thread where people could go and express their ideas and opinions on the concept.

First, here's why I feel this game could GREATLY benefit from a card duplicator:

Right now one of the biggest issues this game faces that other card games do not is the fact that you basically need 3 copies of a unit in order to run it. This means, when you win or pull a single copy of a new card from the lottery or a pack, you tend to not feel happy about it like you do with other games (at least I know I don't), but almost depressed, because odds are that unless you spend tons of money, you'll never actually get enough copies of said card to actually use it. This strongly discourages people from spending unless they're willing to spend in huge amounts, which not many players are.

The card duplicator helps deal with this issue. With the existence of a way to duplicate cards, you still need to pull or win that first copy, but doing so is actually a joyous moment because now its possible to duplicate it and actually use that card some day. This is different from letting players buy singles because they still need to get lucky to get that first copy, meaning the heart of alteil where players have to play with what luck gives them remains constant, it just means a much greater portion of the player base can actually make use of what luck gives them. Thus it improves player morale and encourages players who are only able or willing to spend a little money to still spend.

So then how should a card duplicator be implemented if one were implemented. Here's some of my ideas:

- FM cost proportionate to duplicated cards recycle value (maybe 10 times?)
* cards duplicated in this way are treated as starter cards, with a symbol showing such, no seasonal art, and having no recycle value

Reason to do it this way: This would improve the very lacking Cost per Content ratio alteil currently has. You still have to spend or save for months and get lucky to get that first copy, but even a single copy is potentially a really meaningful thing, and you are thus able to get a very playable set of a large portion of every card (probably through lots of FM grinding) for say 30 bucks. Also encourages more players to actually play the game to earn that FM.

- Gran cost proportionate to duplicated cards recycle value (maybe 3 times?)
*cards duplicated in this way are treated the same as any other card.

Reason to do it this way: Encourages more spending. Your not really reducing the cost of cards so much as allowing the player to focus their spending so that they come away with more actual usable cards when they do spend, as opposed to the current situation. In the long run this could actually earn much more money, not just because of people who will spend more now that they can guarantee play sets, but because of people who continue to buy packs after having duplicated something and get repeat copies of something they already duplicated. Pretty much everyone wins, but unless the duplication cost is low the CpC ratio remains bad.

- Combine both of the above suggestions, a player can either spend a lot of FM to duplicate a card, or a smaller amount of Gran, kind of like how a player can buy avatars.
* FM duplicated cards are like starter cards, gran duplicated cards are like normal cards

Reason to do it this way: Sort of a best of both worlds solution. Impatient player who wants new usable cards quickly, but don't like the fact that you can't buy singles? Well you can use your gran on the duplicator to at least duplicate and make useful the cards you do pull from packs. Patient player who wants to get the most value for his money possible? Spend what your willing to spend to get those first copies knowing that you can then grind out the FM to make them playable and thus making your smaller spending worth while.

Regardless of how its done, assuming the pricing was reasonable, I really do feel that a card duplicator would greatly improve the morale of the players and actually greatly increase spending among those who can't or aren't willing to spend big bucks (which I assume would greatly improve the morale of the GMs).
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Re: The Card Duplicator Thread

Postby lupos » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:08 pm

In our hours of debating over potential new ideas one thing that came up was a similar idea to this but with a bit of a twist. You could exchange a card + some gran for an extra copy of a card you already have. Ideally it would be one you have 1 or 2 of and not 3. Though perhaps 2 different prices for those willing to take the risk would be fun. The idea being it's sort of recycling but with a purpose so if you have a 5star you don't want you can swap it, for a cost, for a random 5 star you need.

Not sure how practical an idea it is but it seemed like a fun concept to me. Curious about you alls thoughts.
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Re: The Card Duplicator Thread

Postby InigoMontoya » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:16 pm

lupos wrote:In our hours of debating over potential new ideas one thing that came up was a similar idea to this but with a bit of a twist. You could exchange a card + some gran for an extra copy of a card you already have. Ideally it would be one you have 1 or 2 of and not 3. Though perhaps 2 different prices for those willing to take the risk would be fun. The idea being it's sort of recycling but with a purpose so if you have a 5star you don't want you can swap it, for a cost, for a random 5 star you need.

Not sure how practical an idea it is but it seemed like a fun concept to me. Curious about you alls thoughts.


I'd really hate to see it be exchanging a card + some gran for an extra card of the same rarity you already have 3 of. Please make it be a card + some gran for an extra card you have 1 or 2 of. This is a huge difference for me. One plan just sucks my gran for very little gain as I pay gran to "duplicate" a card I have 4 of, only to get a different card I now have four of. The other plan is an incredibly valuable and wonderful gift from Alteil that finally allows me to collect 3 of every card.
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Re: The Card Duplicator Thread

Postby DanTheTimid » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:18 pm

lupos wrote:In our hours of debating over potential new ideas one thing that came up was a similar idea to this but with a bit of a twist. You could exchange a card + some gran for an extra copy of a card you already have. Ideally it would be one you have 1 or 2 of and not 3. Though perhaps 2 different prices for those willing to take the risk would be fun. The idea being it's sort of recycling but with a purpose so if you have a 5star you don't want you can swap it, for a cost, for a random 5 star you need.

Not sure how practical an idea it is but it seemed like a fun concept to me. Curious about you alls thoughts.


Interesting idea, I'm up for ANY idea that makes completing playsets of cards easier, but this does seem a bit complicated for the sake of being complicated. It also kind of punishes players who used to have TONS of 4+ copies of cards but have already recycled them all and thus would have to either purposely buy more "extra" copies or have to break up their existing play sets. Also not a huge fan of the "2 different prices, one guarntees you get a card you have less then 3 of, one just guarentees its a card already in your collection". That system seems awkward and has additional issues like, if all your missing is playsets of 5*s, does it guarentee you a 5*? It also seems to kind of penalize players for having lots of play sets already since the (I assume cheaper) option of risking getting a card you already have 3 of would be a MUCH greater risk for players with lots of playsets.

Still nice to know the GMs are considering duplicator options.
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Re: The Card Duplicator Thread

Postby Harion » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:42 pm

i don't like this idea simply because i hate thinking how much i could've saved if this was implemented b4
also how do i recoup the losses i made when there was no card duplicator b4?
the essence of a CCG i believe is "collecting"
so in effect, a duplicator will only cheapen the joy of collecting in Alteil
also, i would bet that if they implement some sort of card duplicator, they would decrease chances of higher rarity pulls to insane levels
maybe something like .0000001 chances for every 1 million pulls or something
good luck duplicating a card you can't get a copy of

i'm more pissed off by the EX cards
it doesn't make sense in a CCG perspective
i mean the whole point of the genre is to "collect"
so making something totally uncollectable seems against the whole point
i can understand publishing limited editions to drive rarity
but since there is no trading in alteil, there is totally no way for collectors to EVER complete their collection
unless they started playing in alteil since the beginning and have NEVER missed buying complete copies of EX cards


i'm something of a collector so i really nkow what i'm talking about when i'm saying alteil is really losing a lot of sales in this regard
i totally support any moves to re-release ALL the EX cards for a limited time
AND give all new players the chance to buy previous EX releases for a limited time after their registration
and you don't even have to lower prices and can even increase the prices of previous EX cards released
and i'm sure ppl would still buy them
i just don't understand how your marketing ppl can't se this obvious money making scheme
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Re: The Card Duplicator Thread

Postby Xovian » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:48 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:I'd really hate to see it be exchanging a card + some gran for an extra card of the same rarity you already have 3 of. Please make it be a card + some gran for an extra card you have 1 or 2 of. This is a huge difference for me. One plan just sucks my gran for very little gain as I pay gran to "duplicate" a card I have 4 of, only to get a different card I now have four of. The other plan is an incredibly valuable and wonderful gift from Alteil that finally allows me to collect 3 of every card.


I concur. It should not even be looking at cards you already have 3 (or more) of.
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Re: The Card Duplicator Thread

Postby DanTheTimid » Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:07 pm

Harion wrote:i don't like this idea simply because i hate thinking how much i could've saved if this was implemented b4
also how do i recoup the losses i made when there was no card duplicator b4?
the essence of a CCG i believe is "collecting"
so in effect, a duplicator will only cheapen the joy of collecting in Alteil
also, i would bet that if they implement some sort of card duplicator, they would decrease chances of higher rarity pulls to insane levels
maybe something like .0000001 chances for every 1 million pulls or something
good luck duplicating a card you can't get a copy of


What losses? We don't even know how it'll be done and your assuming having the duplicator would have saved you money? Unless its FM based theres a good chance the duplicator could actually cause a person to spend more money, not less, particularly if they duplicate prior to getting at least 1-copy of every card in the set (which is still going to require insane amounts of spending and luck).

The way the game is now your collecting passes to use a card, once you get 1... you don't really get anything, but once you get 3, it activates. With a duplicator, your still collecting passes to use a card, only once you have one pass you can spend FM/Gran/Whatever to get the other 2 passes and activate it. I'm sorry but even with duplicating this game will still be VERY collecting heavy and should meet the needs of 99.9% of collectors out there.

I'm a collector too, but I'm also a player, right now all the game lets all but the most money frivilous do is collect, I want to be able to collect AND play with my cards, not just collect them but be unable to use them.

And your "bet" on them changing the rarity seems highly unlikely and completely with out basis, pure negativity for the sake of negativity.
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Re: The Card Duplicator Thread

Postby Harion » Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:12 pm

DanTheTimid wrote:And your "bet" on them changing the rarity seems highly unlikely and completely with out basis, pure negativity for the sake of negativity.

no really. i base my bet base on the assumption that Alteil is first and foremost a: business model
and as such upper management would always want to minimize losses as much as possible while increasing profit greatly
i have the mind of a marketer so i know how their minds work
money first, game later
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Re: The Card Duplicator Thread

Postby DanTheTimid » Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:31 pm

Harion wrote:
DanTheTimid wrote:And your "bet" on them changing the rarity seems highly unlikely and completely with out basis, pure negativity for the sake of negativity.

no really. i base my bet base on the assumption that Alteil is first and foremost a: business model
and as such upper management would always want to minimize losses as much as possible while increasing profit greatly
i have the mind of a marketer so i know how their minds work
money first, game later


Well I'll give you this much, the lowering of the 5* rarities when the smaller sets came out was a pretty greedy under handed action, but if they wanted to be "greedy" with the duplicator I think they'd be more likely to just charge a ridiculous amount for duplicating your cards. From what I understand though, alteil isn't currently turning a profit, the problem with charging unreasonable prices or setting ridiculous rarity distributions is you have to first have something people want bad enough that they're willing to put up with your greed fueled actions, and it seems they're learning that at least in the US market, they don't have that. Alteils a great game, but theres a lot of great games out there that give you alot more content for a lot less money. So I'm hopeful we won't see any more changes of that nature. If nothing else I don't have any reason to assume they would do something like that again.

And again, unless the duplicator was actually done via FM, I strongly question how the duplicator would decrease their profits. Quite the contrary, if they leave everything as is and charge fair prices to duplicate, I strongly believe it would greatly increase their profits as low spenders would have a real reason to spend which they really don't have currently and mid/big spenders would have a reason to spend to try to complete some of their last playsets via duplicator, rather then not spend at all because they don't want to invest hundreds of dollars to get "maybe" get those last cards they're missing. And thats not even counting the money they'd make off people who duplicate, then buy packs again from the set they already duplicated cards out of.
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Re: The Card Duplicator Thread

Postby Harion » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:23 pm

DanTheTimid wrote:..the lowering of the 5* rarities when the smaller sets came out was a pretty greedy under handed action..

so was the lowering of rarity pulls when they implemented the 10 gran lotto
DanTheTimid wrote:If nothing else I don't have any reason to assume they would do something like that again.

it s the exact opposite which you should anticiapte
DanTheTimid wrote:...it would greatly increase their profits as low spenders would have a real reason to spend which they really don't have currently and mid/big spenders would have a reason to spend to try to complete some of their last playsets via duplicator, rather then not spend at all because they don't want to invest hundreds of dollars to get "maybe" get those last cards they're missing. And thats not even counting the money they'd make off people who duplicate, then buy packs again from the set they already duplicated cards out of.

if you're taking about rare hunters, they already are the game's biggest spenders and drivers of profit
so if anything else, the duplicator will just hurt sales more
if you're talking about those not spending trying to hunt their last copies, the duplicator may indeed be of some help in spurring sales
but the sales this would generate would be minimal and would be hardly noticeable as compared to the lost sales that would be made from big spenders stopping their rare hunting
the biggest help of the duplicator i can see is in retaining more players in alteil
the game's current and STILL biggest problem is player retention this is what keeps the game from growing and developing into a real money making machine
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