GMs: RP Arena? LvL Arena? FM Lotto? Points Cards: LOL...

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Re: GMs: RP Arena? LvL Arena? FM Lotto? Points Cards: LOL...

Postby luckysvn777 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:06 pm

I think there is no arguing that surviving in Folrart is tough as a free player, simply because there is not as many options available to oneself. However, its certainly possible. I'm sure I am not the first one to manage 60% win ratio with a modified starter in Folrart, and I certainly won't be the last if people are willing to put in the effort.

The flipside is, its very satisfying when one wins against a high level player with just the most basic of tools. No matter how shiny the opposing cards are, or how expensive their deck is, all Iczers are subject to the random number generator and making mistakes. Capitalizing on those mistakes are what separates a good Iczer from a bad Iczer, no matter which file one plays.


This made me smile ^^ Especially the last lines to both paragraphs :)


Most people will complain in a lopsided competition. Why is this so difficult for Alteil players to understand? When you pull out a Vile Swordsmanx3 against a guardian player who's run out of magic bolts... it's not even a contest anymore.

When you go Athira Shin with Cyclone against Dalos player, how can you call it a fair fight? Unfairness may be a part of this game but that also means that people will naturally protest about it - especially noobs. Doesn't matter how much you sigh about it. That's human nature.



Well then, hopefully the Guardian player then learns to not waste his Magic Bolts too early next time. Why is it so difficult for players to understand that experience, or lack thereof, causes more of the lopsided competition than cards or levels ever will?

And for the record, some lawtia 1*'s combined with a lawt starter will give Allind/Athira Shin/Primclone a very very bad day. Crest Vet anyone? And don't get me started on Mad Priest.
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Re: GMs: RP Arena? LvL Arena? FM Lotto? Points Cards: LOL...

Postby Pancakes » Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:23 pm

luckysvn777 wrote:
Well then, hopefully the Guardian player then learns to not waste his Magic Bolts too early next time. Why is it so difficult for players to understand that experience, or lack thereof, causes more of the lopsided competition than cards or levels ever will?

And for the record, some lawtia 1*'s combined with a lawt starter will give Allind/Athira Shin/Primclone a very very bad day. Crest Vet anyone? And don't get me started on Mad Priest.


u are kidding me right? Have you taken a look at the latest meta files? How about put your money were your mouth is and play a "modified Lawtia starter" for a while. Let's see where you are in the rankings then Mr. Experienced. Better yet, run a Guardian deck NO star dragon or Right Hand Shield - remember the entire point is to show what noobs can do with their limited resources and EXPERIENCE.
I can only use Bringer, BKR Jack, and returns cuz I'm a free player. It's my best shot at winning!
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Re: GMs: RP Arena? LvL Arena? FM Lotto? Points Cards: LOL...

Postby luckysvn777 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:29 pm

Gee, rude much?

Maybe when I get bored sometime I'll go make a lawt alt and prove you wrong. But I don't really feel like it, nor do I have the time right now. And of course, I have no intention of playing a file just cuz you said so.

Next time try and be polite and maybe i'll try to take the crap you post here seriously.


Oh and for the record, i've been experimenting with a Guardian file just like what you said recently. I think it would do decent enough. Heck, the entry I put in to Arakis Quest would do good enough even.
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Re: GMs: RP Arena? LvL Arena? FM Lotto? Points Cards: LOL...

Postby Kamerynn » Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:13 pm

Lucky has already made a guardian deck without star dragons or garfath. When he first got here, he came to the forums and asked for help. He only needed a couple tips to start winning with a very small card pool - I remember he didn't even have a set of musicians yet. His beginnings, anyway, were as humble as mine - we're both testaments to the fact that new players can thrive, Pancakes. If that weren't enough, we have another new player reporting a win rate of around %60 in this thread: Emainma.

Yes, if lucky ran a lawtia starter, he would likely no longer be in the top rankings. So what? I bet he could pull off a win rate of %60 or, more likely, higher than that. That's true of many of us vets, and points to the efficacy of experience. Is that not enough, for some reason?

That isn't to say that having a large card pool doesn't matter. Of course it matters; that's to be expected. If it were otherwise, there would be no incentive to buy cards (except, perhaps, for the artwork). Yes, vets are much more easily beaten when they pick up starters - I'm thinking of a particular top iczer, here, who made a "no cash" alt account. However, we can still compete - we can still thrive - proving that's it's certainly possible.
Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.
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Re: GMs: RP Arena? LvL Arena? FM Lotto? Points Cards: LOL...

Postby luckysvn777 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:19 pm

I've already made several throughout the years. Set 5 isn't even the nicest set for tanking right now, but its still doable.

Did I mention it beat EM twice by the way? Without Musician (which by the way, it wasn't that I didn't have a playset, it was that I didn't get a single one of them xD)? As a new player? Pretty sure I had beaten EN and Allind with it at one point too.. And this was set 3, where Refess was still lackluster. So yeah Pancakes, continue assuming I don't know what I'm talking about..

Thanks for the back-up Kam.
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Re: GMs: RP Arena? LvL Arena? FM Lotto? Points Cards: LOL...

Postby Tenkai » Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:25 pm

@luckysvn777: good for you that you can pull wins with your so called lackluster refess file, whether it's true or not. There are now decks out there, which can't be beaten with just a modified starter, no matter how expierenced you are. I watched alot of games through the last week and believe me, there is a reason, why ppl like Mavel, Beezneez, Hinata... are constantly getting winning streaks. Sure they lost too but most of the time against another highlvl player with a very strong meta deck. Free to play players and small spenders have no chance to compete against them in the near future without spending a small furtune on alteil: thats exactly the reason why most of the ppl quit the game. Like I said before you either spent ALOT or nothing. Spending a little bit of money is like throwing money out of the window.

Kamerynn wrote:Lucky has already made a guardian deck without star dragons or garfath. When he first got here, he came to the forums and asked for help. He only needed a couple tips to start winning with a very small card pool - I remember he didn't even have a set of musicians yet. His beginnings, anyway, were as humble as mine - we're both testaments to the fact that new players can thrive, Pancakes.


You both (or lucky777 at least) are actually testaments to the fact, that you have spent money in order to be still competitive: and I guess at least lucky 777 spent alot compared to the small time spenders.

Kamerynn wrote:If that weren't enough, we have another new player reporting a win rate of around %60 in this thread: Emainma.


Do you expect ppl with a winrate of 40% or below to report it here in the forums LOL? Seriously if there are ppl with winrates of 60% and above there are bound to be ppl with winrates of 40% and below. And guess what? These ppl mostlikely quit alteil... The winrate isn even that Important, the RP value is way better to judge an iczers strenght. I saw a player with around 62% winrate but a RP of around 1230: does it tells you something? That guy probably got his 62% winrate by beating only even lowerlvl iczers with even lower rp values than him.

I think both of you lucky and Kamerynn are missing another an important point: most ppl or like 90% of the free players and small spenders out there don't have the patient to wait several months to get the right cards and be slightly more competitive. By the time they have a playset there will be new sets out with even better cards. No matter what the staff is saying: the card distribution and circumstances to get a playable set are just ridiculous. I just spent 6$ today (thats usually the amount the small time spenders are willing to pay here and there) and bought 4x Set 5 boosters: I didn't get a single playset out of it, let alone a playset for my sphere... I pretty much got ZERO value for my money: alot of small time spenders are experiencing the same "ripped off" feeling: no wonderalot of ppl are quitting the game.
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Re: GMs: RP Arena? LvL Arena? FM Lotto? Points Cards: LOL...

Postby luckysvn777 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:52 pm

Whee, this is going to be fun...

Tenkai wrote:@luckysvn777: good for you that you can pull wins with your so called lackluster refess file, whether it's true or not. There are now decks out there, which can't be beaten with just a modified starter, no matter how expierenced you are. I watched alot of games through the last week and believe me, there is a reason, why ppl like Mavel, Beezneez, Hinata... are constantly getting winning streaks. Sure they lost too but most of the time against another highlvl player with a very strong meta deck. Free to play players and small spenders have no chance to compete against them in the near future without spending a small furtune on alteil: thats exactly the reason why most of the ppl quit the game. Like I said before you either spent ALOT or nothing. Spending a little bit of money is like throwing money out of the window.


This was back in set 3 with minimal spending. We are talking $20 max. Back then EM, EN, Allind were the so called "unbeatable files". And the file beat them. And you know what? I have no doubt that that can happen in this set as well, except maybe vs Primclone. Yes, there is a reason why people like Mavel and Beez get high win streaks. They know how to play the game. Simple as that. Yes, their file helps, but I would not be surprised that if the roles were reversed, but experience remained the same, that those Iczers could still win. Believe me, i've seen plenty of people play meta files with no clue what they are doing, and it shows. Same goes with starters.

Oh and here's a fun fact, I lose just as often to low level players as high level ones. If anything, the low level players are less predictable.

Sooo, looks like I'm an exception to your point there.

You both (or lucky777 at least) are actually testaments to the fact, that you have spent money in order to be still competitive: and I guess at least lucky 777 spent alot compared to the small time spenders.


Do pay attention. We were competitive with the minimal spending we did. I just chose to pay more because I wanted variety and I love the game. However, for the first few months, I was a small time spender. We are talking about back then, not now. That should be obvious.


Do you expect ppl with a winrate of 40% or below to report it here in the forums LOL? Seriously if there are ppl with winrates of 60% and above there are bound to be ppl with winrates of 40% and below. And guess what? These ppl mostlikely quit alteil... The winrate isn even that Important, the RP value is way better to judge an iczers strenght. I saw a player with around 62% winrate but a RP of around 1230: does it tells you something? That guy probably got his 62% winrate by beating only even lowerlvl iczers with even lower rp values than him.

I think both of you lucky and Kamerynn are missing another an important point: most ppl or like 90% of the free players and small spenders out there don't have the patient to wait several months to get the right cards and be slightly more competitive. By the time they have a playset there will be new sets out with even better cards. No matter what the staff is saying: the card distribution and circumstances to get a playable set are just ridiculous. I just spent 6$ today (thats usually the amount the small time spenders are willing to pay here and there) and bought 4x Set 5 boosters: I didn't get a single playset out of it, let alone a playset for my sphere... I pretty much got ZERO value for my money.



RP of around 1230 means he just entered Folrart. And you are seriously going to demean someone's accomplishments? Its certainly not the only case of a newer player doing well with minimal cards. And I have no doubt (having been one of those new players) that it wasn't just low-level iczers. Its possible for those who actually try to learn. Coincidentally, they also seem to be the people willing to come to chat an learn about the game. Hmmm, talking to people and getting better... I seriously don't know why that's such an unheard of concept.

Once again, my case. Mod Refess starter. Never went below 1500 RP. Minimal spending. Played plenty of high level players. I just prepared myself beforehand, got help, and made sure I knew what I was doing first. It took me a week of preparation before I went to Folrart. I was PAITENT. Coincidence? I think not. It took me one loss to EM to figure out what to do to beat it the next time I played it. Because I used my brain and planned.

Of course, we also have the case of Galandros, who took a gowen and falkow free alt account to level 20 in days with good RP and win% for both. Effortlessly. I watched it. So apparently, just the darn starters themselves with no payment whatsoever can still do well in Folrart... with EXPERIENCE. So, I seriously wonder what your excuse is to deny that example.

You are right, 90% of iczers don't have patience. And that is exactly why they are doomed to fail from the start. Not because of the game, but because of themselves.

Oh, and its what, a 60 card set? You are getting 20 cards. You seriously expected 3 out of those 20 cards from a set of 60 to be the same? Be realistic. That wouldn't happen in any CCG of any kind.
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Re: GMs: RP Arena? LvL Arena? FM Lotto? Points Cards: LOL...

Postby Romdeau » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:58 pm

Moved to the appropriate thread.
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Re: GMs: RP Arena? LvL Arena? FM Lotto? Points Cards: LOL...

Postby Skewer » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:40 am

I think its just that its too difficult to actually get to the point where you can be truly competitive. Most new players want to be able to just jump right in and start playing right away. They would rather grind for 8 hours straight in one day than 30 minutes a day for about 2 weeks. The see the game and think "Oh this looks soo fun!" up until they get into folrart. Then it becomes, "dammit, what can I do to win?" This question just lingers day and night; every time they log on for mm, the question reappears. Sure with mm, you could get to that point eventually, but is it worth all the mental suffering until that day when you pick up your first new (usable) playsets? Also with all the comments about experience being key, you have to realize you can only gain experience from playing. But what is there to keep them motivated to play? Is it the huge power difference between veterans and noobs? Is it the -1 penalty for losing? Is it the chances of lottoing useless cards day after day? In my opinion, only a masochist (or an otaku) would be willing to play this game as a free player under these conditions. I know I caved after realizing I wouldn't get anywhere without spending.

If you advertise this as a free game, people will naturally assume its grindable. They can live with the fact that paying players will get certain benefits, but they all come believing that with enough effort, they will be more or less on an even playing field with the paying players. But then they realize how virtually ungrindable this game really is. Grinding gran in the arenas requires a strong file and lots of experience, everything a noob does not have, and MM flat out doesnt let you grind gran. In their eyes, this game is hopeless. What can we do about this? How about taking away the daily gran limit from MM and instead making each attempt cost 20-100FM or so. This way, they would have to play in the arenas to get FM, which they could then convert to gran to lotto or whatever. Second, take away the -1 gran penalty for losing and replace it with a +1 gran for trying. 3rd, automate the system so that it gives you the gran immediately after the duel. What's the point in making someone wait a week for the gran they earned today?

In fact now that I think about it, why is MM the medium by which most players get their gran? Wouldn't it make more sense if Alteil itself gave players their gran? +3gran per win and +2gran per loss (completed games) delivered instantly would definitely increase the number of players playing at any given time, as well as the number of players total. Sure some players could get ridiculous amounts of gran this way, but not everyone is Mavel, and those who play that many games do deserve to be rewarded, regardless of whether they won or lost.
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Re: GMs: RP Arena? LvL Arena? FM Lotto? Points Cards: LOL...

Postby Tenkai » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:36 am

I fully agree with skewer's post. Couldn't have said it better: the GMs should translate it and sent it to the japanese devolpers! It perfectly sums up the main reason, why ppl aren't sticking with the game.
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