Limited/Ban List

User suggestions to improve the game

Limited/Ban List

Postby odanobunaga » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:34 am

I put up this topic because I am starting to get frustrated with the number of Forart Guardian users in alteil. I have lost to every single one of them. Obviously, that card is broken... however, the alteil promoters still give out events that make guardian EASIER to acquire. Now Gowen files really dont have anything that can kill guardian in one hit other than some grimoirs, after kiling one of those ******* with fire arrow, another will revive and get blessing. Even though it is obvious that guardian is cheap, people are still in denial about doing something about it. Almost EVERYONE has it now. And some cannot compete with a limited pool of useable cards.

One solution I have thought of is using Yu-Gi-Oh's ban list system. Players will be alowed to use Guardian in training arenas and Single player mode but will not be able to use her inthe other arenas. It doesn't even have to be permanent, just a temporary ban until good counter cards are available to players. Some arguements would be how ateil's random card purchase system will basically waste the buyer's money if he or she ends up with a banned card, My solution is that players can choose to keep the banned card, or trade it for point cards. That way, we can hit two birds inone stone: making point cards more available and getting rid of broken cards.

If banning is not acceptable, we can always make cards like that limited. It's really not guardian herself that's annoying, it's the fact that most people have three of her in their files and it would just be a waste to use fire tornado on her. Limiting cards allows players to keep a limited amount of copies of powerful cards in their decks. That way, guardian will be a bit less powerful.

The final solution I propose is replacing broken cards with similar balanced ones. In Yu-Gi-Oh, an overused cheap card like Chaos Sorcerer has been replaced by similar but harder to summon Sky Scourge. If a ban was executed, a player can repace their banned cards with a useable version.

A "legal" version of the Folrart Guardian would be:

Lvl 3
HP: 50
AGI: 1

It could come with new art,or not... up to the promoters.

Don't double post if you can simply edit your original post to add something like this.
Last edited by odanobunaga on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Limited/Ban List

Postby luckysvn777 » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:21 am

Guardian has about a gazillion and a half counters. Seriously, she's nowhere near the top of broken and/or bannable at the moment. In fact, I would go as far as to say that she really needs more help in next set so that the slow tanking Refess file actually has a chance again... I miss Solar Kingdom...

And frankly, the new Refess players need an easy way to get Guardian so that they actually can have a decent chance when they get to Folrart of getting a win or two here or there...

EDIT: Also, i'd like to note... Yu-gi-oh's revolving ban list... was a BAD thing. Seriously, I hated it, and I know i'm not the only one. Even though the game needed it. Alteil doesn't need a ban list. It can do errata. even though there are maybe only 2 cards that need errata right now..
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Question about the guardian hate

Postby chrisheller » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:02 am

I know what you all are thinking, "Oh boy, some newb is getting pissed about people hating guardian because he can't win without her"... truthfully A) I'm not pissed, B) I know why you hate her and I can see why and C) No, no I can't win without her XD.

But the question... why hate ONLY her? Quite frankly I can name 4 cards I believe are "over powered" and in the order I believe how "cheap" they are (first = cheapest)... Mercenary, Azure, Guardian and Dalos (DALOS IS STRONG... I just never got beat by him).

I know guardian is VERY strong... but why just her? I don't see a guide on how to counter Mercenary or Azure (well... for refess anyway).

Besides... I got all of my 3 copies of Guardian before I even hit level 7 (It's called the lottery... and I have never spent money on gran)... in fact I have acquired 3 rarity 5 cards in my life playing this game and I sold them all (didn't need them and that's 900 gran total) so I can't see how my luck is so good that I can get these cards and no one else can (in terms of majority).

And also, no I do not plan on using Guardian or even Refess for ever... I am actually saving up for a Magic Doll deck (and seriously... what guy wouldn't XD.... I'm semi kidding there XD).

besides the only other deck people can rely on for refess is a "weak level buff deck"... much faster and stronger then a guardian deck... which yes requires both time and money to make...

Anyway if Guardian is as "unbeatable" as everyone says then I am using her wrong (sure I usually won in the crest dome but now that I am in the folrart arena... that has changed quite a bit... if anything I have Zager lasting longer then her).

Anyway I am going to try a new deck build with my deck... let's get Priest of the Holy Word in there.
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Re: Question about the guardian hate

Postby DWildstar » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:05 am

chrisheller wrote: But the question... why hate ONLY her? Quite frankly I can name 4 cards I believe are "over powered" and in the order I believe how "cheap" they are (first = cheapest)... Mercenary, Azure, Guardian and Dalos (DALOS IS STRONG... I just never got beat by him).

Merging your post with this other thread chrisheller since it's basically the same discussion.
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Re: Limited/Ban List

Postby Sorina » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:35 am

Seriously, guardian is just annoying not overpowered. Delos is far worse. Any time delos hits the table, its a automatic swing to that persons advantage. Luckily I never seen him dropped when the opponent has a full board. He is normally killable when he is by himself if you swarm all over him. Mercenary can be a real pain too, if you leave him. Though if you take him out quickly, he isn't that great. You just need to play aggressively against cards like that, get rid of them as quick as possible, and limit the damage.
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Re: Limited/Ban List

Postby luckysvn777 » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:53 am

In terms of Vordore and Dalos... well that's just starter balance I think. Dalos can be beaten simply by not being able to kill with his action skill. In other words, he fails when the opponent has enough cards with HP + DEF > (highest level * 10 + 10)... in other words, he's beaten by the "HP/DEF sphere", Refess..(he's usually by himself, at least in the lawt starter, since they need to sacrifice to give him the SP for his action skill.. thus when he can't kill he gets swarmed and dies)

However, Refess has slow AGI, and Vordore is faster.. meaning he can go first and buff the attack and defense of all their great spirits while Sea Hunter tanks... meaning they have the def to survive, the AGI to go first, and the attack to take out Refess tanks. (However, a solution for Refess could be counter skills... hopefully a well-buffed Guardian would work.)

To be fair, fast strong units, like a Gowen rush, will make short work of Vordore and his great spirit army. But then, those units have low HP, meaning Dalos' action skill will deal mass damage to them.

And thus, we've gone full circle. Perhaps the starters aren't as imbalanced as people think?

Of course, in Folrart, Vordore is practically useless while Dalos remains one of the better cards in the game.
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Re: Limited/Ban List

Postby Romdeau » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:56 am

All these cards you guys are talking about are common and are counter-able using other low rarity cards. Basically, I agree with the fact that odano is raging over a card that gives his file trouble. I'm sooooooo sick of seeing Guardian myself, but she is not broke! Just play smart, set up your counter (DON'T attack her mindlessly, I can't believe I see so many newbies doing this to guardian expecting it to work-lol Combat Monk hits Guardian for 10-20 dmg). It's pretty easy to spot a Guardian user-they typically open with puffballs. They also usually have a streak of less than ten (with a few exceptions). Why? Because it's so bloody easy to beat; guardian has been a part of the meta for so long, every experienced player knows that every one of their files should have a way to counter her. If it doesn't, the file is bad.

Anyhow where's DWild's rant on how you can win without Guardian playing Refess? Come on, here's your chance DWild-odano is setting you up for the alley hoop here.
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Re: Limited/Ban List

Postby Peralisc2 » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:57 am

@ oda

I find the limiting and banning completely wrong since the game wasn't meant to be that way. They have errata so there is no need for any of those two, whatever kind of broken or overpowered card you talk about, they can keep changing it forever, so really no restriction is ever needed.
Delos is far worse.

No, seriously no. Dalos is ok to be in a starter, guardian isn't.

If you check a bit the card list you will notice not even Ernst (a 5 star rare - and people keep saying OMG HIGH LEVEL PLAYERS WITH RARES) is as helpful and useful and whatever else, as guardian is.

chrisheller wrote:I can name 4 cards I believe are "over powered" and in the order I believe how "cheap" they are (first = cheapest)... Mercenary, Azure, Guardian and Dalos (DALOS IS STRONG... I just never got beat by him).

Azure .. ? Azure Beastmaster? Sorry, I just can't remember a different card that is named azure+smtg and the beastmaster can't even come close to being OP. Oh ok i see someone mentioned vordore, well that guy needs some support, it's actually harder to play than it looks and it's incredibly much easier breakable, at least with expierence.
And no to dalos and mercenary, but if you want i help you out with other examples of really broken cards.

You can counter Mercenary with shield break + damage. Sure it's nasty against refess starter.
- play what you want and don't stop until you feel like you want to play something else or got a better deck
- guardian is retarded because it's so fking cheap for what it can do
- also guardian deck generally also have serious support for it, so it's not just that you have to take a way that's a bit longer, many have to take the road that's like 20 - 30 times longer and even then aren't guaranteed a win. Simply put you need to make your deck also focused on countering the guardian while for most decks out there you need just general overall decent deck strength.

The other cheap to build, refess-easier-to-win-with deck got Zero which needs no further explanation.

And if you think you play wrong your deck, go spectate some duels, practice a bit in solo arena or in training, join a guild or find a group that helps you train with your guardian deck ... etc.
Alteil is pretty much well balanced. Sometimes you loose and sometimes the enemy wins.
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Re: Limited/Ban List

Postby luckysvn777 » Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:06 pm

I'm not quite sure he's necessarily playing the Guardian file wrong... I know I could make the meanest Guardian file, and I would still do horribly because there are just so many easy counters these days...

And really, you don't need to focus your file on countering Guardian.. you just throw in a counter (der F for gowen rush, for example. No problems with Guardian with my rush in set 3, the Guardian heyday).. heck, most good files these days naturally have counters anyway. Doing 80 damage... or even just 50-60, with one attack is really not very uncommon, even for lower level files..

The exception really is gowen rush (since the counter cards aren't included naturally in it)... which is why we get all these whiny Guardian threads.. "boo hoo, my rush is being stopped by a tanking file both meant by the player and the developers as a way to balance out my rushing" Its a card that hurts starters and some rushes.. otherwise, most other files just laugh at it.

Heck, if anything these days, with so many counters, Guardian fails to do its job of balancing out rush.. which I'm truly sad about..
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Re: Limited/Ban List

Postby DWildstar » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:31 pm

Romdeau wrote:Anyhow where's DWild's rant on how you can win without Guardian playing Refess? Come on, here's your chance DWild-odano is setting you up for the alley hoop here.

Heh, I didn't think that's the point of this thread. Yes it's true that Refess can win without Guardian, Shrine Knights or Starmander, it's just very unpopular to try it :(

Of course I agree Guardian can be dealt with by every sphere. Refess can shield break and tank (that 20 AT or even 40 with magic musician doesn't mean much if your own guys have good defense). And yes, Gowen users with smaller units just need to not attack Guardian until they have something to cut them down with. Lawtia has tons of grimoires that cut her down to size, Falkow has lots of returning abilities and Rapier Fencer of course. Though my favorite method of disposing of Guardian is probably sky staff sorceress.

Plus if you have an assassin or salamander soldier or invisible druid then it doesn't really matter what sphere you play. Most of the Guardian files that will the kind to use blessing and all sorts of buffs put their eggs in one basket so when you remove that Guardian they're caught with their pants down.

More on topic about a banlist, that's what card errata is for and the advantage of an all online card game. Does Guardian need errata? I really don't think so. In my ideal world people would try more of Refess' units, but not sure a Guardian errata would do that even. They'd probably just abandon Refess or play Shrine Knights or Starmander. :(
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