Less repeats in boxes

User suggestions to improve the game

Re: Less repeats in boxes

Postby Demongod » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:32 pm

Fact of CCGs, Animeniac:

They also have strong and vibrant secondary markets to the point that a lot of people banding together would be able to make far stronger strategies than they can separately.

But oh no, that cuts into Alteil's profit margins!

If Fierte was common, Gowen Rush wouldn't be any stronger than it is right now, assuming she's balanced.

A card's strength shouldn't be determined by its rarity. If it is, in order for rarity = power, well, we can all have a little logic exercise.

Money = rarity.
Rarity = power.
Therefore, Money = power.

Therefore, money = wins. Therefore, skill != wins. (Either the money gets you the win or skill does. Whatever wins skill gets you, money doesn't, and vice versa) Therefore, the only winning move in such a game is not to play.
Nerf Elite Fencer. Change start skill to "target unit of agi 4 or higher gets AGI = 3. Then, this unit gets AGI = 4 for this turn and ATK +10"

For the great justice of the diverse meta.
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Re: Less repeats in boxes

Postby yamas11 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:51 pm

Well, Alteil is a Japanese CCG, and Yugioh is also a Japanese CCG, and as you know in Yugioh, top rares = way to victory. That's probably the Japanese mindset for all of their CCG's. The US Alteil team seems to be inexperience in CCG business and are just following the Japenese way.
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Re: Less repeats in boxes

Postby MTCosta » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:51 pm

People misunderstood me. I was asking for less repeats per box, not less repeats over time. So for each card in the box:

1. Roll to see what rarity I get.
2. If the box has already given me 3 copies of that card, there is a chance that it rolls for another card of the same rarity.

So you don't get rarer cards from this, you just get a wider variety of cards. It doesn't take into account cards in your collection, it ONLY cares about the cards in that particular box.

Earlier today I had zero Set 6 cards. I bought a Gold Box hoping to get myself a good portion of the 1* and 2* cards, and maybe a few rares. But 30(!) of the 120 cards in my box were repeat 1*'s. A fourth of my box was worthless, and remember, I had zero Set 6 cards before buying the box. Is there anyone who thinks this is reasonable?
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Re: Less repeats in boxes

Postby ANIMEniac » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:13 pm

Don't forget that some products need to be sold higher b/c of a lower market just to make profits.

It's easy to say "make it cheaper and more will buy". But is that really the case? Who knows, it is all really a guess and a choice to execute or not.

If Alteil's cards were cheaper, will more players buy? Some can argue yes. Some may end up buying a little more at lower cost (like if EX cards were cheaper, I could spend a little more for more sets of some). Some may spend less seeing as they got what they wanted at lower cost. Will "free" players decide to buy at lower prices? Or will they keep on the "free ride".

Look at WoW. They still charge a pretty high premium even though they are so successful. Why don't they drop the price to try to grab more players?
Why is AION the same price as WoW, even though it is not as big?
Why was a pre-owned copy of Disgea $45+ at Gamestop when the sealed game is $50?

There are many other factors to think about in marketing. You can't just go out and say "do this and then this happens". You need to analyze and try to predict the market and trends and have hard data before you can offer something drastic as a price change.

@Demon
Fact of life Demon, just b/c you can do it in RL, doesn't mean it is as easy to pull off in a game (especially an online one).

We've already been through this whole secondary market thing. You are expecting the trading and potential selling of cards (virtual goods). And as we already heard, there are many outside influences that could affect such a feature. Most MMOs condone the selling of their virtual goods. And I will say, yes it could be possible to "sell" cards/Gran through a trade.

Sure, sharing cards would be nice. But it is not as simple a process as you think. With RL, you trade and share with your friends. Easy. Online you are trying to store and manipulate data to keep track of EVERYONE's cards. Have you ever tried to program? Do you know how Flash works or an idea how such a feature could be put in w/o any hassle?

When you get a high rarity card, you want to look at it and say "Wow! this is really nice". So as a designer, you need to come up with interesting effects to live up to that "why is this card rare?" justification. It is not always "insert uber effect on 5*". There are many ways to design cards.
- Take Character concept and give it an appropriate effect fit for the character. This rarity design is usually heavily tied to the importance of character within the story. Verlaat and Eska are big examples.
- Design effect and place it on card fit for the effect. This can go on any card. However, if they feel the effect is a bit much, of course they want to put it at a higher rarity.
- Take high rarity card and give it a great effect
- Take card and design effect fit for card.

High rarity doesn't always = power. Too many assumptions
Those who spend money leads to having more chances at cards. It is not like they can go right out and buy the broken 5*, unlike RL CCGs.
I'm not arguing over that people who spend do get more of an edge, but it isn't everything.
And also, do remember part of the experience is being able to obtain that nice rarity by chance form random pack. I can probably say that the difference of getting a 5* by a high payer and a lucky draw form a free player must be intensely more satisfying for the second party. Not saying it's justifiable, just saying...

@MT
I don't have problems with what you proposed, and I agree with it. I hated seeing so many unneeded dupes when i could have made use of something i didn't get. You get so many 1*s that I don't really mind it as much, but when higher rarity start seeing dupes close to 5+, there is something wrong. I do feel for ya seeing that a good portion of your box was recycled jank.
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Re: Less repeats in boxes

Postby garcia1000 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:43 pm

ANIMEniac wrote:@MT
I don't have problems with what you proposed, and I agree with it. I hated seeing so many unneeded dupes when i could have made use of something i didn't get. You get so many 1*s that I don't really mind it as much, but when higher rarity start seeing dupes close to 5+, there is something wrong. I do feel for ya seeing that a good portion of your box was recycled jank.


That is quite an interesting opinion, because a few posts back you said that he made an unreasonable demand:


ANIMEniac wrote:Please thing a little more about the consequences before just throwing them out thinking it is a great idea...
"Pixies are all level 2, right? So why not try to drop cyclone on them?"
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Re: Less repeats in boxes

Postby ANIMEniac » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:47 pm

If you read what Demon proposed you would know...here, I'll quote it:

Demongod wrote:This is why I say you should never ever be allowed to obtain a 4th copy of anything. Ever. If people are paying real money for gran, why the heck are they getting stuff that they literally have to throw away?

See, in TCGs, you can at least trade your extras.

Here? Oops.


Guess I should have said so at first. I figured people would get how silly the concept was...
Last edited by ANIMEniac on Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Less repeats in boxes

Postby LoneKnight » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:49 pm

Yes, the proxys are totally integral to the storyline (that we have no damn clue about), and their ability to enhance a sphere other than their own makes great sense.

It's not like they wanted to make effective multi-sphere decks above level 1 splashing restricted to those who shell out or anything. No sir. Nuh-uh.

I thought we have left this whole fluff>crunch thing behind us with MTG like, 15 years ago. We should've.

WoW and AION are at the same price because that's the maximum price most people are willing to pay for an MMO. And the funny thing about most people is that there are more of them than some people. Some people like Inigo may pay upwards hundreds or thousands to get a full collection. Most people won't. I don't think this is disputable.
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Re: Less repeats in boxes

Postby ANIMEniac » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:05 pm

LoneKnight wrote:Yes, the proxys are totally integral to the storyline (that we have no damn clue about), and their ability to enhance a sphere other than their own makes great sense.

It's not like they wanted to make effective multi-sphere decks above level 1 splashing restricted to those who shell out or anything. No sir. Nuh-uh.

I thought we have left this whole fluff>crunch thing behind us with MTG like, 15 years ago. We should've.

WoW and AION are at the same price because that's the maximum price most people are willing to pay for an MMO. And the funny thing about most people is that there are more of them than some people. Some people like Inigo may pay upwards hundreds or thousands to get a full collection. Most people won't. I don't think this is disputable.



Good reading. I stated a couple ways how things could be designed and you go and pick out that it's wrong b/c of 1 of the reasons.
Oh, I'm sorry that such a great effect as multi sphere was put on a 5*. Oh noes it's terrible we have to use an SS to do it! Oh noes, my Proxy got shut down by a 4* that reset all my spheres! And that is what you'd do if you had 1-2* Proxies. You'd complain a 4* just wiped the floor with you.

I'm going to explain how this works with your expample:
-The proxy set intro'd multi-sphere
- The "intro" was in the form of SS.
- The next level to get people worked up about was the Proxy.
- Proxies are limited by only tying in certain spheres.

Multi-sphere are very hard to put together just right. Some had better synergy than others. THAT was the flavor of the set, so it makes sense that would be the "ultimate" cards to shoot for. What would people think if the set was based around multi and the 5* was Fierte, the anti-theme of the set? Would be completely stupid IMO.

As for the pricing of games:
- Where did this $15 mark come from? Surely someone researched the price consumers would pay to get that number.
- What does AION try to compete on pricing against the big name WoW, when they could easily reduce price to draw customers?
- I wonder if you knew there are probably more people willing to spend more than $15 for online games. How popular? Why do you think people still try to sell gold/items/accounts? I've seem people continue to throw $100 monthly for "free" games.
- Fact: micro-transaction games are on the rise
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Re: Less repeats in boxes

Postby LoneKnight » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:52 pm

Oh, I'm sorry that such a great effect as multi sphere was put on a 5*. Oh noes it's terrible we have to use an SS to do it! Oh noes, my Proxy got shut down by a 4* that reset all my spheres! And that is what you'd do if you had 1-2* Proxies. You'd complain a 4* just wiped the floor with you.


Obviously, I wouldn't instead construct a strategy to, you know, iczer before putting the proxy down. Heaven forbid I use my brain. I'd go whine like I do because of the new Refess bearer that's a level 1 that ruins my whole lycan deck. Or all the new -max HP SS that were made to kill undead...dead, but stop lycanthropes just as well. Yes,I'm spamming the suggs forums asking for NERFNERFNERF. OH WAIT! I DON'T! What a shock. People don't always complain if there are cards beating their decks. They sometimes do complain if they can't get the card to counter said counter. Which correlates nicely with putting a counter to the whole sets theme at 4* btw.

I'm going to explain how this works with your expample:
-The proxy set intro'd multi-sphere
- The "intro" was in the form of SS.
- The next level to get people worked up about was the Proxy.
- Proxies are limited by only tying in certain spheres.

Multi-sphere are very hard to put together just right. Some had better synergy than others. THAT was the flavor of the set, so it makes sense that would be the "ultimate" cards to shoot for.


Yes it makes perfect sense that the 4 cards embodying the set's concept are the hardest to get. Seriously. I'm not being sarcastic.

What would people think if the set was based around multi and the 5* was Fierte, the anti-theme of the set? Would be completely stupid IMO.


Ahahaha. Yo DO know that it is a common practice for MTG (hell, most TCGs in general) to make an anti-card for the mechanical theme of the booster? This is so that if the mechanic proves to be too good, there's a counter for it. However, the rarity of these cards depend on their usability most of the time, not on their flashy name, illustration, or a story some Japanese dude thought would be AWESOME.

On MMOs:
- Yes, Blizzard did. As far as I remember, WoW was an experiment to see how successful a game of the genre could be (since before WoW came out, MMORPGs were considered a very niche market)
- Because the price is already set by WoW. Thing is, they should be going HIGHER. But they can't because of WoW. The game is much better, but the lowest common guy simply won't pay more. So they price match. Lowering the price would be stupid, because won't draw more people in (the lowest guy already accepts paying 15$/month, who'd going lower draw in? Homeless people?).
- Never denied this. I'm just saying they are the minority. A I'm pretty sure it's the masses that usually support the site and not the minority.
- Question: Is Alteil too?
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Re: Less repeats in boxes

Postby Ginnazoh » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:24 am

LoneKnight, from your post, I have the feeling you have never used proxies before. I think if you look at the proxies carefully, you would notice that they are VERY wisely designed. the sphere of the proxy itself is usually containing the supporting units for the sphere that the proxy boasts, which contains the main units.

Animus : lawtia proxy, boasts gowen. I really havent seen a good use of this proxy. I remember bring it up a while back and exemplar gave me some examples but I've looked around for people using it and came up emtpy. But like with esria, esria is ur main unit and she's gowen...with der fei if u use him, hes ur main killing unit and he's gowen...so you need those gowen to take advantage of the synergy.

Pullermia : gowen proxy, boasts falkow. Primclone is the only example of a great multisphere deck. gowen by playing pullermia is slowing down any momentum its building...and all gowen bigs usually need falkow sp gens to support its sp since gowen is not great at generating SP. they would need those 3 falkow to cast meaning of failure to get sp to do other things. cut off the meaning of failure for a turn or two, and you severely cripple gowen falkow decks.

Limier : refess proxy, boasts lawtia. only reason to use this that I see is for healing priest to revive lawtia. again the main units are lawtia units and healing priest is the support.

Oseon : falkow proxy, boasts refess. most people ive seen use this use it either as falkow sp gen for big refess or a guardian deck where falkow buffs and grims. in both of these situations, main units are in the refess sphere and falkow is there for support.

So as you see, if you delay playing your proxy, you are slowing yourself down a lot since in your alternative sphere you mainly have support units, unless you throw in some suicide unit to set off opponent ss, then you are taking up slot in your deck for these additional units.

And if I have a fierte ss, do you think id let you set it off easily, I would want it in a situation where I can control when I set it off...I doubt many people would start with a suicide unit with fierte ss...(in lycan people open dagon or ex:riza so they can control when to set off fierte...in gowen rush, you would open with kurina or another unit where you can revive and control setting fierte ss off)...obviously if I had fierte ss, I would wait for your first ss to go off before setting off my fierte (since lots of first ss are sphere boasting)...

Obviously, I wouldn't instead construct a strategy to, you know, control my fierte ss to go after your sphere raising ss and/or proxies. Heaven forbid I use my brain.

anyways I definitely agree with how it is ridiculous how you can get 8 or 9 of the same 1 stars in a box. although I am kind of curious how the entire box mechanism work.. Is it just operating like you buying 24 packs....or how does it work? I mean if it is just working under the idea that you are buying numerous packs at the same time for a discount, I guess i can understand how you would get large number of repeats and it would kind of make sense..albeit still really annoying.
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