No trading/buying/selling cards?

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No trading/buying/selling cards?

Postby DanTheTimid » Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:35 pm

So if I understand things correctly, this game does not have any sort of auction house to buy and sell your cards on, nor any sort of trading system to show off and trade cards with? Assuming that is the case, I'm curious as to why it was done that way. It seems like a major part of any card game is the fun of trading cards, and the auction house is just a version of trading where you convert your cards to a virtual money and then convert that virtual money into other cards. Auction houses can also prove to be good "Gold Sinks" in that alteil can charge a tax on every sale made through the auction house which will slowly be draining away money from players while still allowing them to manipulate the cards they have into the cards they want.

So anyone know why this game doesn't have any trade or auction house features? Also for players, how do you all feel about that? I know I for one am a little disappointed. Certainly not something to make me want to quit the game, its the game play and card design/balance that will determine if this game is the addictive success I hope it will be, but atleast with the information about the game I have so far the lack of this feature seems like a bit of a let down.

Note: I have heard from Logress that there is some sort of recycle machine that allows you to trade in extra cards to the computer for some virtual money but I can't comment further on that system and how well it makes up for the lack of trading/auction house until I've actually gotten to make use of it myself.
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Re: No trading/buying/selling cards?

Postby bahka » Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:11 pm

In my later MTG playing, I would just go to ebay and buy the cards I wanted to make my "perfect" deck. That kind of drained away the fun of getting new boosters, making a great deck with what you have, etc.. The only benefit from buying individual cards was that it became cheaper in the end, because buying a ton of boosters gets REALLY expensive.

Now, you have a card game that is essentially free, and I, for one, would not like to be able to just buy whatever cards I wanted as long as I had enough money. I would like to receive these free "boosters" and have a great time building decks out of what I get.

This is just against buying/selling cards. Trading is a whole different subject.
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Re: No trading/buying/selling cards?

Postby DanTheTimid » Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:28 pm

bahka wrote:This is just against buying/selling cards. Trading is a whole different subject.


Certainly an interesting take on things and food for thought but keep in mind that most games don't do buying/selling through real money which is what you seem to be against, but the in game money, so your basically just trading the cards but your using the in game money as a way of making trading easier and more fair.

For example I want card X which is very valuable, worth 10 in game money. I have cards A, B, and C, each worth 4 in game money. The person I want to trade with doesn't even want my A,B, and C cards but even if he did i'd be losing out in value in a direct trade. HOWEVER there are 3 other people, one who wants A, one who wants B, and one who wants C. Unfortantly they don't have anything I want, cause I just want card X. In a normal trade system things just won't work out.

Using an auction house, however, I sell A,B, and C to the people who want them for a total of 12 ingame money, then use 10 of that to get card X that I wanted.

Its also worth noting that some of us have terrible luck with packs, and while we don't mind buying them to build up a collection, because of our bad luck we almost always invariably end up having to trade extras of cards we don't want for the actual cards we want that we just can't seem to pull.

Trading is also a great way of making or building friendships. Maybe I've got a few extra cards I don't need and my friend could use those cards, I'd gladly give them to him for nothing or close to nothing. Maybe I just run into some one randomly and they seem really polite and friendly so I want to just give them a free card I don't need as a way of being nice. Maybe I'm a guild leader and I want to reward members of my guild for playing alot or playing well with extra cards I have. Theres definitely alot of pros to having the ability to trade.
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Re: No trading/buying/selling cards?

Postby DWildstar » Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:35 pm

The way the card recycling system works is that you can trade cards you don't need for Gran. Then you can use that Gran to buy more packs which gives you a chance to get different cards.

As for players buying and selling between each other. The creators of the game wanted to avoid a situation where (like bahka said) you get people who get the good cards just by spending more money which takes the fun out of the system. This equalizes things between players somewhat and keeps the focus on the actual game instead of the acquisition of virtual wealth.
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Re: No trading/buying/selling cards?

Postby DanTheTimid » Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:43 pm

DWildstar wrote:As for players buying and selling between each other. The creators of the game wanted to avoid a situation where (like bahka said) you get people who get the good cards just by spending more money which takes the fun out of the system. This equalizes things between players somewhat and keeps the focus on the actual game instead of the acquisition of virtual wealth.


See I just don't how thats the case, it still gives the advantage to players who spend the most money, just they have to rely on luck with their packs rather then getting exactly what they want. If anything it makes it so those who are extra wealthy and willing to spend an extra lot have even greater an advantage because it'll probably cost alot more (unless your really lucky) to collect whole sets or get exactly what cards you want.
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Re: No trading/buying/selling cards?

Postby bahka » Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:55 pm

DanTheTimid wrote:Certainly an interesting take on things and food for thought but keep in mind that most games don't do buying/selling through real money which is what you seem to be against, but the in game money, so your basically just trading the cards but your using the in game money as a way of making trading easier and more fair.


This game uses real money and in-game money. So, if there is an auction house that just uses in-game money, then that would definitely lower the potential for the situation I described earlier. However, there is still potential for that, because you could use real money to get "boosters" and then sell those cards for in-game money. Thus converting real money into in-game money.

DanTheTimid wrote:Trading is also a great way of making or building friendships. Maybe I've got a few extra cards I don't need and my friend could use those cards, I'd gladly give them to him for nothing or close to nothing. Maybe I just run into some one randomly and they seem really polite and friendly so I want to just give them a free card I don't need as a way of being nice. Maybe I'm a guild leader and I want to reward members of my guild for playing alot or playing well with extra cards I have. Theres definitely alot of pros to having the ability to trade.


I completely agree. I am just thinking there is an ideal balance between no trading at all and a real money flooded market. Maybe I am just being too paranoid or unfairly comparing 2 card games that are rudimentarily different.

Either way, i think we have presented both sides for everyone to ponder.
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Re: No trading/buying/selling cards?

Postby DWildstar » Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:19 pm

It's true that people who spend money will be able to have a larger quantity of cards, but the recycle system allows everyone (to a point) to get a larger variety of cards. It's also not necessary to get every single card in the set to make a good deck. One of the Japanese GMs as a policy has not spent a single yen since creating his account in order to demonstrate that it is indeed possible to play Alteil completely free.

New features are only going to be added to the game if they're added to the Japanese version (which has been out for several years already). It's too early to be thinking about adding new features at this point because we're concentrating on getting the game out. Even once the game is officially released we'll still have a lot of catching up to do.

I'd suggest waiting until you've had a chance to play the game before judging too harshly features that at this point you are only speculating to be unfair.
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Re: No trading/buying/selling cards?

Postby Kyoshi » Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:44 pm

In my point of view the Auction houses in games or anywhere always start out as a good, fair, equal place to get the things you want in a easier faster way. Until the greedy inflation bug hits people. And yes it happens, just compare it to the gas prices now-a-days. Just because one person has a higher price for it others will. And I'm for a trading gifting system but would probably stay away from a so-called auction house for the reason of an inflated market. Hypothetically, I pay 10 Gran for card X when I can buy 2 booster packs for the same amount of the card then sell recycle those cards to buy more. This is all guessing because I haven't used the system yet.

And why make a game that is free to be cluttered with a money inclined theme by adding the auction house?

As I said this is my opinion. I'm all for a type of trading/gifting system though.
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Re: No trading/buying/selling cards?

Postby DanTheTimid » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:07 pm

DWildstar wrote:It's true that people who spend money will be able to have a larger quantity of cards, but the recycle system allows everyone (to a point) to get a larger variety of cards. It's also not necessary to get every single card in the set to make a good deck. One of the Japanese GMs as a policy has not spent a single yen since creating his account in order to demonstrate that it is indeed possible to play Alteil completely free.

New features are only going to be added to the game if they're added to the Japanese version (which has been out for several years already). It's too early to be thinking about adding new features at this point because we're concentrating on getting the game out. Even once the game is officially released we'll still have a lot of catching up to do.

I'd suggest waiting until you've had a chance to play the game before judging too harshly features that at this point you are only speculating to be unfair.


If it sounds like I'm coming off harsh against Alteil then my apologies, I'm just inquiring to learn more about exactly how things are going to go down, why they are going down like they are, and how others feel about the way its going down. Rest assured if I had access to the game already I'd be busy playing it and trying to learn at least how and why things are implemented this way first hand rather then inquiring about it, but since I don't his is the best I can do.

I still don't know specifics about the recycle machine, depending on how its implemented it sounds like it can function in the same way as selling cards just with out inflation. I'll miss the fun of manipulating the market to make a profit but oh well. Still if thats the case my only remaining concerns are that I have horrible luck with opening packs so I always prefer the option to buy individual cards (which is something that can be done with out allowing trading if the computer allows you to do this directly from itself) and of course as I stated earlier I love having the ability to trade with and even just straight gift cards to friends or people who seem nice. Of course if you implement a gifting system your basically opening the door for trading so if there is a reason they are against trading then I don't see that happening.

Its worth noting that they did apparently change the Japanese game already by convincing them to add tabs so its not unprecedented that the English game could propose and implement changes to the Japanese game, but I am well aware that its very unlikely and at best wouldn't happen for a long time. Still I don't think it hurts anything to make my opinion known on this subject. My apologies again if it sounds like I'm suggesting the current system is unfair, its not unfair, it just doesn't sound like my ideal system.
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Re: No trading/buying/selling cards?

Postby Grain » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:18 pm

DanTheTimid wrote: Still if thats the case my only remaining concerns are that I have horrible luck with opening packs


Maybe you'll be able to buy an in-game horseshoe?

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