POLL: Returns

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What (if anything) should be done about "Return"?

 
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POLL: Returns

Postby Lateralus923 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:21 pm

Hey guys. This poll was requested by Imortal12233, and concerns everyones favorite topic. We don't need a huge discussion here - just some tabulated votes. Explain "other" votes in the thread! Thanks!

Used Oto's trick to put "blank options" so I can add other choices later without erasing the results. Let me know if you have a general concept you'd like to vote on and I can add it. I'm setting this poll so users can change their votes any time.

GM's - if you read this - please support the polling section if results are truely valuable. It started out relatively strong but the number of votes have been diminishing. Even a brief announcement on the main page could:

1) get more results from the polls
2) get more users active in the community


(Sorry to use your poll as a shout-box, Imortal!)

Thanks!

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Re: POLL: Returns

Postby gabotheplaya » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:20 am

at the time i'm posting this...

1st place = no higher sphere levels
2nd = leave it alone.

i voted to leave it alone, i still think its more balanced than MTG counter-spell.

i play a mod-starter falkow, often return is the only advantage i get.
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Re: POLL: Returns

Postby crimsonshade » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:22 am

That's why the ideal nerf is only for multisphere... Falkow returns won't be affected.

PS If you didn't notice, the conditional is only referring to "other" sphere levels, not Falkow.
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Re: POLL: Returns

Postby Ithaldir » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:53 pm

Imho the problem would be Return Spam. I can take a Return or two maybe even three in a game, but I can't stand those games where I can't have more than 2 units on the field at a time... so how about a second effect to Return: "Send two (card: Return) from your Card File to the Cemetery."
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Re: POLL: Returns

Postby xideru » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:01 pm

About ex night wyvern ,galdileo ss and future cards
ex night wyvern is horrible ,falcow izcer would have 2 turns to stop/return it,and only lawtie players can use this ex,cuz this ex is unavailible to get now
And it even could help lawtie players to play that ex nightwing becouse one card that can counter one other card isnt so broken.Look there is folrart monk who can kill all subture undeads (and future undeads)so who plays him ? buffing one bad cards dont make game unbalanced


Galdirea -first nobody plays that ss (or at least nobody, i havent seen it only 3-4 times since set 6 comed)
second - if sphere limit will be 3,gladileon wount stop return ,noboy will play 2 gal ss

Future cards changes a lot when they come to our alteil,or they can be totaly different.
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Re: POLL: Returns

Postby piratipper » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:05 am

Hi, I'm a Lawtia player. I'm using EX Night Wing Wyvern and raise your Lawtia level to 4 and ban your return grims.


Sounds like quite a cool Return counter to me. Its not a no-brainer to set up and the falkow play would have ways to count it. Any good falkow player should have another element to his strategy rather than just returning anyways.

I voted for other. A very elegant solution would be to have return grimoires (and other level-conditional grimoires perhaps) resolve after the open skills of units, so that units that increase friendly unit levels on open would be able to defend against returns if you know that the opposing iczer is going to cast such a card.


Is this really an elegant solution, messing around with the absolute fundamental rules and order of the game and making exceptions? I'm not so sure it is.
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Re: POLL: Returns

Postby Artist » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:22 am

Sigh IDK why people are voting for banning multisphere for return. Multisphereing is such a huge part of Alteil, and return is such a huge part of falkow. If you ban multisphereing with return, you pretty much ban multisphereing with falkow.

In the end, you'll have a bunch of silly decks in refess lawtia and gowen doing their cute little things, and you have your dumb WK pure falkow return decks. I don't see how that's so much of an improvement.


Refunding SP in some way, increasing the grim cost, even limiting it to only 1 copy per deck or anything, would be better than limiting it to falkow only. Limiting it to falkow only just sounds stupid IMO.
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Re: POLL: Returns

Postby garcia1000 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:47 pm

Artist wrote:If you ban multisphereing with return, you pretty much ban multisphereing with falkow.


I think this is an exaggeration.

Falkow multisphering cards with current return: 147
Falkow multisphering cards with proposed return: 146
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Re: POLL: Returns

Postby LoneKnight » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:33 pm

It also means you can't really multisphere into falkow. I mean, I don't miss WK+HK+pegasus falkow decks that much, but still... And this way Return also stays as a justification for having mediocore units (or good units with bad HP). What remains multispherable is the SP gen, and I really can't think of anything else. Oh, right, the occasional sylph, undine, teleport and maybe magic musician... splashes at best.

Then again, I can't think of good multisphere or falkow aside from those anyway. Mayber the color is just destined to be the manawhore...
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Re: POLL: Returns

Postby alvisto » Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:26 pm

garcia1000 wrote:
Artist wrote:If you ban multisphereing with return, you pretty much ban multisphereing with falkow.


I think this is an exaggeration.

Falkow multisphering cards with current return: 147
Falkow multisphering cards with proposed return: 146


Plus multisphere users still can use Wrath/Sweeping/Disjunction/Cyclone. Urgrant deck wanna use return ? Fine, spend 1 more SP and 1 sphere to use it. Big Red wanna use as well ? raise falkow by 1. Changing the return grimoire just limits them from using the Level 3 return grimoire, and since the level 3 return is the most effective/most used one, it should be the one who is going to be errata-ed. The only downside that I can see from changing the return grimoire is that it makes level 3 multisphere Falkow+other sphere a bit less competetive (for example, Pegasus Kingdom, Monster + Serpent)

How about this suggestion ?

Return
Level 3 Grimoire
[Conditional Skill : Refess, Lawtia & Gowen's sphere level equal or less than Falkow's sphere level] Return target level 3 unit and below to the card file.

This enable falkow multisphering into other sphere deck (where the other sphere have lower sphere level) to be able to use return.

This also enable those level 3 multisphering files to be able to use return as well, as long as long other sphere's level does not exceed falkow's sphere level. (Pegasus Kingdom, monster serpent, faytis+anything else)

This also disables deck like big red, urgrant, big yellow from using return. If they want to return something else, use other alternatives, use wrath, tidalwave or disjunction.
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